[MOD] [TC/AP] X3 Rebalance Mod (XRM) - Total conversion - v1.30d (02.12.13)

[d_ka]

If the ship has heavy main guns and weak turret coverage - it's intended to be used against larger ships, not smaller, and vice versa.

Really? Deimos, or Tiger attacking an M2? 8 PPG, or even "better" 8 ISR?

M7 with front turrent instead of main guns is a big no-no for player's ship IMHO - I've tried it, and they behave just like an overgrown M6. Thicker shields, same hitting power.

Could you, please, show me a single M6 with Turret instead of main guns? ( not the Paranid Nemesis, it´s quite crappy otherwise, and has only x6 guns in front turret! ).
Behaiving like an M6? M6 in vanilla X3 were the ships i´d hoped for to get to when i first played, and i flew one of them exactly for 1 minute, before i dumped it - any m3+ could do a better job. M6 in XRM, aside from Split super agile ships, fly exactly how i´d would imagine a fast and manouverable ship would fly ( a ship class ment to kill fighters, btw, it´s X3 canon, look it up ).
Having main guns in heavy ships means performing some crazy stunts flying it, if you want to survive, - definetly not a way to fly a Frigate, and above...
Shrike is the only example in XRM that comes close to "gunship" - heavy front assault guns ( the pirate version has them even in side turrets ). Both crappy constuctor designs, they not only lack enough energy for a half way prolonged fight ( which is quite ok concerning the whole lore ), but also carry a taskgroup with it, even an M6 is doackable. Tell me, how is a mini Carrier, actually supposed to "support" task groups, is such a multi purpose ship, that can´t even hold against a single light M6 on it´s own? Not all battles, or rather fights, are for fleets - Shrike type ships are not capable to hit a thing in game.

The targets for the light frigate are M7M and M7C, not corvettes.

Let´s see: So what is it then that is supposed to attack M6? A super large and bulky M2? A fighter that should flee seeing those, actually, or a bomber, that is supposed to attack huge ship, actually, not smaller craft, since, at least in XRM-AP, a salvo would simply kill any M6 right away - jus tlike this, no manouvering is gonna save it ).
M7M? Well, i don´t think any ship in this game can take on M7M, sorry. Not in a small fleet, not with fighter support - those ships are nuts ( i also suppose, that they get the same crazy "shoot all missiles we´ve got in one salvo" panik, when they are in danger behaiviour, and that´s why an encounter with them at close quoters, where they should not be in a favorable position, are mostly very uncool, if not plain lethal ).
M7C as target are valid, but Shrike, or Deimos, are M7C themselfs, actually, since they are carriers too. Carrier vs. Carrier? Oh, well...

No one goes after fighters in light M6.

So what is a "light" M6 exactly for? M6 are anti fighter support ships, see above. Heavier M6 should be able, and are, to some degree, capable in taking out a Pirate, or a Xenon raid ( that said, OOS it can get tricky ).

Last, but not least: any ship that has main guns actually shows a "fighter behaviour" ( hit&run ). And you can hit only bigger targets with gunns from bigger ships ( unless it´s ISR, 1700 m/s speed rules, but the range is crappy ), which shows us a following scenario in vanilla XRM:
- a Deimos, for example, closing in on a Titan, shoots couple of volleys
- starts evasive manouver ( with bones it can, otherwise "ramming speed"! )
gets pounded meanwhile, while not able to hit it´s main target, the M2, -cause of lack of a front turret
- thank to massive 6 Gj shilds it´s still alive, goes for the second run
- same picture, but this time it´s pretty much dead - shild regen ain´t the best, it´s not a destroyer, and all it has accomplished was to "distract" the enemy M2.
Result: all it´s fighters are stranded, if survived, the M6 can fly home alone. Over 60 mio. damage to your pocked, more with weapons/software. If you imagine a number of "crew" dead, compared to a losss of a couple of fighters, there is no other word then Pyrrhic Victory that comes to my mind.

P.S: I don´t want to ruin the fun for pepole who like main guns for the player ship. There should always be such a choice in game, but for overal balance i think main guns must go entirely.

[paulwheeler]

"Credits Received" were always in XRM (north of "Void of Opportunity" - originally "Unknown Sector" in Vanila), but due to map changes in patch 3.0(?) and additional plots (another player sector) its location were changed.

Yes I noticed that aswell by now, however there are 2 Credits Recieved Sectors now or what? Because both, the one north of Void of Opportunity and the one south of Mandalay are existing in my game, weird stuff

Then something is wrong with your installation. Do you have any other mods that alter the map or add sectors? Are you seeing all the new XRM sectors?

There definitely should not be two sectors with the same name.

[leoriq]

If the ship has heavy main guns and weak turret coverage - it's intended to be used against larger ships, not smaller, and vice versa.

Really? Deimos, or Tiger attacking an M2? 8 PPG, or even "better" 8 ISR?

Of course not, Tiger should attack only M2+, because I clearly writed "largest ships", not "larger ships", didn't I? Oh, wait, I didn't!

M7 with front turrent instead of main guns is a big no-no for player's ship IMHO - I've tried it, and they behave just like an overgrown M6. Thicker shields, same hitting power.

Could you, please, show me a single M6 with Turret instead of main guns? ( not the Paranid Nemesis, it´s quite crappy otherwise, and has only x6 guns in front turret! ).

Could you, please, read my post again to understand thay I talk about M7 without main guns, not M6 without main guns?

About the M6 in vanilla X3 and the changes introduced to them in XRM - where did I said that M6 is bad? It is worth it's money in XRM. But M7 that gives you only better shileds for the price of three M6 - is not.

Having main guns in heavy ships means performing some crazy stunts flying it, if you want to survive, - definetly not a way to fly a Frigate, and above...

I am a X3: Reunion Mamba Raider pilot, I can do crazy stunts and I love doing it. And your survivability depends on speed and shielding, not on the front turret.

Tell me, how is a mini Carrier, actually supposed to "support" task groups, is such a multi purpose ship, that can´t even hold against a single light M6 on it´s own? Not all battles, or rather fights, are for fleets - Shrike type ships are not capable to hit a thing in game.

Oh no, we have a single crappy ship here, all M7 are flawed!! If you want a M7C to fight against something, fill its hangars with fighters. Becuase it's a mini Carrier, not a mini Destroyer. Mini Carriers do not fight "on it's own".

The targets for the light frigate are M7M and M7C, not corvettes.

Let´s see: So what is it then that is supposed to attack M6? A super large and bulky M2? A fighter that should flee seeing those, actually, or a bomber, that is supposed to attack huge ship, actually, not smaller craft, since, at least in XRM-AP, a salvo would simply kill any M6 right away - jus tlike this, no manouvering is gonna save it ).
M7M? Well, i don´t think any ship in this game can take on M7M, sorry. Not in a small fleet, not with fighter support - those ships are nuts ( i also suppose, that they get the same crazy "shoot all missiles we´ve got in one salvo" panik, when they are in danger behaiviour, and that´s why an encounter with them at close quoters, where they should not be in a favorable position, are mostly very uncool, if not plain lethal ).
M7C as target are valid, but Shrike, or Deimos, are M7C themselfs, actually, since they are carriers too. Carrier vs. Carrier? Oh, well...

First, I do not understand how you get from "what is it then that is supposed to attack M6?" to "i don´t think any ship in this game can take on M7M" and "M7C as target are valid".
Are you talking about the targets for your M6 or about ships that should be used to kill M6? If the former, use light M6 against Sentinel M6, Sentinel M6 - against fighters, heavy M6 - against light M7. If the latter - kill light M6 with M3 and M3+, kill Sentinel M6 with light M6, heavy M6 - with light M6 and M3+.

Regarding the big scary M7M - grab a flak Frigate, kite M7M until it it out of missiles, destroy.
And - surprise - M1 sometimes do fight against each other despite being Carriers.

No one goes after fighters in light M6.

So what is a "light" M6 exactly for? M6 are anti fighter support ships, see above. Heavier M6 should be able, and are, to some degree, capable in taking out a Pirate, or a Xenon raid.

Only valid targets for light M6 are heavy and Sentinel M6.
Only Sentinel M6 are anti-fighter support, others M6s are not. Because vanilla M6 was a bad design, it evolved into two distinct paths: heavy M6 to fight against larger ships, and Sentinel M6 to fight against fighters.

Last, but not least: any ship that has main guns actually shows a "fighter behaviour" ( hit&run ).

Ahem. Do you realize there is at least two fighter behaviours: the first is flyby (you call it "hit&run"), the second is dogfight (you call it "some crazy stunts"), and not every ship with main guns uses flyby, especially against enemy that has main guns too? To do a flyby you need superior speed and good payload in your main or front turret, to do a dogfight you need good shields, good maneuverability and - again - good payload in your main or front turret.
The problem with front turrent is - you can not control when it is firing while you pilot the ship, so you can't pack a punch the moment you have the enemy in the sweet spot of your reticle, so it is almost impossible to win a dogfight against bigger enemy without good main guns - due to front turret your weapon energy is always at 0 and most of the shots miss. Of course, if you can't maneuver good enought to point you main guns to the enemy, while evading his shots - you would prefer a front turret.

- a Deimos, for example, closing in on a Titan, shoots couple of volleys

Really? Deimos agains Titan? Why not against Valhalla? Deimos closing in on Valhalla, shoots couple of volleys and dies.

P.S: I don´t want to ruin the fun for pepole who like main guns for the player ship. There should always be such a choice in game, but for overal balance i think main guns must go entirely.

They are balanced, you just don't know how to use them.

[BlackArchon]

Hey guys, you are getting quite insulting to each other. I suggest continuing this elsewhere, ok? Let's just say each player has a different playstyle.

[BlackArchon]

Paul, what do you think of the idea to add some ships to the Yaki and Pirate shipyards?

I've edited my x3universe.xml and added for both Yaki shipyards the Fujin Explorer, the Chokaro, the Ryu, the Hoshi and the Akuma. The five Pirate shipyards now sell all pirate-specific ships greater than fighters (TS: Pirate Ship, TL: Mammut and Mobile Pirate Base, M6: Centaur, Osprey, Heavy Osprey, Marauder, Katana, Shamshir, M7: Carrack, Cerberus, Gannet, Geochen, Raven, Shrike, Talon Tern, M2: Brigantine, Phoenix, Pteranodon, Titan, M1: Galleon, Colossus, Condor, Cormorant).

Are there any objections to put that into XRM?

[leoriq]

Hey guys, you are getting quite insulting to each other. I suggest continuing this elsewhere, ok? Let's just say each player has a different playstyle.

You have a point, I said everything I wanted on the topic and will stop now.

[d_ka]

Where did i insult anyone

@leoriq:
You simply didn´t get it: i ain´t talking about player ships, but about AI. And the balance for AI ships, not your "crazy mamba fighting stye" - thus the P.S. at the end...
English ain´t my native tongue, so one might misunderstand what i mean, but i can assure you i know what i´m reading and answering, so when someone says: "attacking bigger ship then Deimos" is for me attacking a bigger class, ergo an M2 which Titan is, not M2+, like Walhalla is, well, it´s actually even more than that, but it doesn´t matter. If you meant an Ocelot, for example, or a Cyclops, that would be a "slightly bigger/stonger" in my book.

I distinguish among classes, like M6 vs M7 etc. it´s way to picky to start speaking about M6Light vs. M6Medium, Sentinel vs. ehm.. not a Sentinel version. X3 doesn´t really offer that kind of nuances to be worth mentioning, imo.
I could go on, but i said it already, it´s not what i can, or can´t do, as a player, but what AI ships ( often under your control ) can perform, or can not.

I´ve seen enough fleet ( and other ) AI fighting in XRM to know what i´m talking about. What a player can, or can not, is not of my concern. Given enough time, and patience, one could kill an M2+ while flying a Corvette in XRM ( like you could with M3+ in vanilla ).

I´m using adv. fight scripts right now, and it improves vanilla behaiviour pretty well, but it has some own flaws, as i mentioned before, and a small performance hit i´m afraid. But even with it´s enabled, some things siply don´t work ( like ISR for main guns for an M7 ). Also, when a Komodo, or a Taipan gets spawned with ISR/PALC layout - it´s plain useless.

[BlackArchon]

...
Also, when a Komodo, or a Taipan gets spawned with ISR/PALC layout - it´s plain useless.
...

I also noticed that some ships are spawning with... non-optimal weapons. Xenon capital ships without QSCs? Seen that. This is especially a problem if you use MARS or Smart Turrets, like I do.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the game's internals to fix this - yet. When someone got a hint where the default equipment layouts for ships are defined, let me know.

[Master of the Blade]

EVERYTHING is OP if the player's in it.

For the AI though, having fixed forward guns is a massive disadvantage for, well, anything, but particularly M7s. While the Shrike and Talon make up for it somewhat by having IBLs, meaning at least their initial pass will do good damage, the Deimos, Kvasir and Tiger have only M6-equivalent armament.

All of these ships have poor weapon counts in their turrets, especially the Deimos, meaning they severely lack damage output. The Deimos puts out less damage in general than the Heavy Nemesis, due to the Nemesis' 4x PPG side turrets and 10x PPG main guns, which it has an easier time bringing to bear.

The Tiger's longest range weapon is, what, 2.3km? The ISR is amazing at antifighter work (Dragon Sentinel is possibly the best antifighter corvette in the game) but when mounted to a ship which is longer than the weapon's own range will almost never even fire on capitals. The Tiger's 3-gun turrets give it some anti fighter use, but the Wolf is better suited for the role.

Aegir at least has some range to it, as well as respectable 4x M/AML or FPD side turrets, but it still puts out bad damage with little utility. The Forsetti has the same amount of firepower in its side turrets, and its front mounts being turrets, its damage output is more reliable. It has the same (?) shielding, and being a carrier frigate a sizable hangar on top of this.

Yokohama is just bad. It has less TOTAL weapon mounts than many M6 craft, average shields and no docking or freight bay utility. The Morrigu M7C is equal or better in most ways, as is the Logich flak frigate.

You can get some use out of all these ships of course, but they are all outclassed by other ships at a similar price point.

As for the loadouts thing, I agree that it's a bit rubbish when that Split destroyer that was supposed to be helping you turns out to have an effective range which can at best be described as 'melee'. Xenon lacking QSCs isn't as much of an issue, since they always seem to have a full load of the equally deadly DMBC (which they almost always switch to when they get close enough anyway). It's only the Split and their ISRs where this is really an issue, though Teladi do seem to be a bit too fond of IBLs when the GC outclasses it in almost every way.

[BlackArchon]

I think you are confusing the Kvasir with the Aegir.

[Master of the Blade]

Oops, you're quite right. Fixed that. Kvasir is DEFINITELY NOT in need of buffs.

[paulwheeler]

...
Also, when a Komodo, or a Taipan gets spawned with ISR/PALC layout - it´s plain useless.
...

I also noticed that some ships are spawning with... non-optimal weapons. Xenon capital ships without QSCs? Seen that. This is especially a problem if you use MARS or Smart Turrets, like I do.
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the game's internals to fix this - yet. When someone got a hint where the default equipment layouts for ships are defined, let me know.

If you are seeing Xenon capitals without QSCs something is wrong - make sure you have all the XRM scripts installed correctly and you have nothing else installed that alters jobs.

There is a chance of a capital spawning without them, but it is very, very slim. The XRM custom version of EES that is integrated with the XRM jobs file will ensure all ships have a decent loadout, while still retaining variety for weapons of the same level - since Xenon don't have any other weapons on the same level as the QSC, its extremely unlikely that a capital will spawn with only lower level weapons.

...unless of course you have another script installed which is spawning the xenon ships - in which case its nothing to do with the XRM.

You may need to restart if there is a mod conflict that is affecting jobs.

That said, EES is designed to give variety in loadouts - it would be boring if every ship spawned with exactly the same loadout - but EES certainly leans more towards the ideal loadouts than vanilla.

[paulwheeler]

Paul, what do you think of the idea to add some ships to the Yaki and Pirate shipyards?

I've edited my x3universe.xml and added for both Yaki shipyards the Fujin Explorer, the Chokaro, the Ryu, the Hoshi and the Akuma. The five Pirate shipyards now sell all pirate-specific ships greater than fighters (TS: Pirate Ship, TL: Mammut and Mobile Pirate Base, M6: Centaur, Osprey, Heavy Osprey, Marauder, Katana, Shamshir, M7: Carrack, Cerberus, Gannet, Geochen, Raven, Shrike, Talon Tern, M2: Brigantine, Phoenix, Pteranodon, Titan, M1: Galleon, Colossus, Condor, Cormorant).

Are there any objections to put that into XRM?

This is in fact coming in the next release - although not in quite such a straight forward manner. There will be privateer shipyards that spawn and move around like the privateer trading stations - these will sell all sorts of ships, including the custom pirate variants of standard ships.

[leoriq]

Meanwhile I'm making a new stats page. Here are screenshots of current version:
Weapon and Missile Compatibility can be toggled off: http://opentorrent.ru/imagehost/3162/15 ... 24f0_0.png
This one is filtered by (Tempest OR Bragi): http://opentorrent.ru/imagehost/3162/15 ... 03f0_0.png
Yep, that's direct ship comparison for you.

You can get it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxxm1ns35zdmx ... s.zip?dl=0

Currently only low HP version - it's still alpha.

Update:
Interface is finished, working on data parser now.

[Enterprise1959]

I install the xrm but it not working now new ship i down load it 3 time no go what i'm doing wrong thx

[Enterprise1959]

In the Game play the Artificial life setting there a xrm core functions and a xrm bounty system there was 3 xrm in their now 2 no new ship

[gilboa]

Meanwhile I'm making a new stats page. Here are screenshots of current version:
Weapon and Missile Compatibility can be toggled off: http://opentorrent.ru/imagehost/3162/15 ... 41f0_0.png
This one is filtered by (Tempest OR Bragi): http://opentorrent.ru/imagehost/3162/15 ... 54f0_0.png
Yep, that's direct ship comparison for you.

You can get it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxxm1ns35zdmx ... s.zip?dl=0

Currently only low HP version - it's still alpha.

Nice!

- Gilboa

[BlackArchon]

Meanwhile I'm making a new stats page. Here are screenshots of current version:
Weapon and Missile Compatibility can be toggled off: http://opentorrent.ru/imagehost/3162/15 ... 24f0_0.png
This one is filtered by (Tempest OR Bragi): http://opentorrent.ru/imagehost/3162/15 ... 03f0_0.png
Yep, that's direct ship comparison for you.

You can get it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxxm1ns35zdmx ... s.zip?dl=0

Currently only low HP version - it's still alpha.

Update:
Interface is finished, working on data parser now.

Seems like you're doing something I also began some time ago: http://blubb.najut.org/xrm/ships_en.html
Maybe we can work together?

[paulwheeler]

I install the xrm but it not working now new ship i down load it 3 time no go what i'm doing wrong thx

Please post a screenshot of your installation folder and I'll see if I can spot the problem.

[Enterprise1959]

sorry im new to all this don't know how to do a screenshot of the folder