Why Terran ships are so slow?

[taztaz502]

Well, I mean, any ship could possibly be faster than another depending on how large it is and how many engines or how large/powerful the engines are, etc. It isn't like something large can't be faster than something small in space.

Doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective though. Why would i get a scout to scout when i could get a frigate that's twice as fast?

Im a big fan of black markets, which requires scanning stations... i dont know if you have tried scanning stations in an M sized ship, it ain't fun, or easy. A small ship is way better for that... or for anything that requires being nimble. Different ships fill different roles. Same thing for getting pilots to bail... it is lightyears easier to get em to bail in a small ship. The asp raider is probably the best ship, IMO, for getting pilots to bail, compared to a large ship.

So that means you only ever have to buy one of them your entire game since the AI can't utilise it in the way you describe.

[grapedog]

Doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective though. Why would i get a scout to scout when i could get a frigate that's twice as fast?

Im a big fan of black markets, which requires scanning stations... i dont know if you have tried scanning stations in an M sized ship, it ain't fun, or easy. A small ship is way better for that... or for anything that requires being nimble. Different ships fill different roles. Same thing for getting pilots to bail... it is lightyears easier to get em to bail in a small ship. The asp raider is probably the best ship, IMO, for getting pilots to bail, compared to a large ship.

So that means you only ever have to buy one of them your entire game since the AI can't utilise it in the way you describe.

I guess technically I only need 1, though I usually havr 6 or 7 stashed around the map, so i can easily meet fsction reps(which you can't teleport directly to, but you can teleport to a parked ship), or for completing missions, or chasing down targets i want to cap or get to abandon their ships, or anything else. Quicker to teleport from ZYA to ANT space... without having to give up on using a good ship. Just have one over there ready...

[Redwyrm]

He have a point. Speed is essential for combat superiority, at least for fighters and corvette classes.

First of all speed IS defense. More importantly prime defense. Yes, you will still get hit, no matter how fast and maneuverable you are, so you still would need some shield and hull hitpoints. But mainly you still have to avoid been hit as much as you can.

Second, speed actually helps with attack. It might be not too obvious, but your actual weapon projectile speed = base weapon projectile speed + current ship speed. And fast Paranid and Split ships can turn even plasma cannon into anti-fighter weapon. Very devastating anti-fighter weapon.

And finally of course - logistics. What's the point of good defensive capabilities, if reinforcement can't arrive in time due to low speed?

So as it comes right now, there only one truly unique Terran ship - Asgard, with it's exclusive XL weapon slots.
Destroyers are in good place (at least the one with 3 main batteries).
Carrier obviously no match for Raptor, but somewhat on par with other races' carriers.

But fighters and corvettes are in very sorry state. Combat-wise they are truly the worst. Super low speed means they will get hit non-stop, pretty much much no fire dodge. And doubling shield capacity tbh not even closely can compensate that.
Yes, there are some good unique weapons. But those simply can be easily outfitted on good-old Dragon, Nemesis, etc

All and all, Terrans doesn't really feel like technologically superior race at all.

[Tidaar]

The way I see it every faction has S/M ships with advantage and disadvantages. Below is not really accurate but bear with me.

Teladi have great shields, decent speeds and firepower. Unfortunately turret placement is not an advantage.
Argon are balanced all around
Split have great firepower and highest speeds but almost no protection.
Paranid hard to evaluate this one as HOP has this powerful 3 shielded ship with plenty of guns but slow. They do have second best engines though.
Humans have meh shields, decent weapons , great turret placements but low speeds , however they have best acceleration.

Here is where it sucks for humans. Everyone else can outfit equipment that bring the best out of what they have in one ship of choice. Humans are stuck with their limitations as they are non compatible with anyone. So it would make sense to vary human equipment a bit so that they can be on par with others but still not too powerful that people go like I will only play with human ships and ignore everyone else.

[GCU Grey Area]

But fighters and corvettes are in very sorry state. Combat-wise they are truly the worst. Super low speed means they will get hit non-stop, pretty much much no fire dodge. And doubling shield capacity tbh not even closely can compensate that.
Yes, there are some good unique weapons. But those simply can be easily outfitted on good-old Dragon, Nemesis, etc

Meson Stream & Proton Barrage can only be fitted to Terran ships. As far as I can tell it's only the basic Terran Pulse Lasers which are compatible with Dragon, etc.

As for speed of fighters, a while ago I did a Teladi game. My main fighter for that one was the Buzzard Sentinel. Not exactly fast but still did the job just fine. Sometimes having a sturdy ship which can take the occasional hit is better than a fast one which is more fragile. At the time tested them against other Teladi fighters & Buzzard Sentinel simply performed better than any of the other options, despite being the slowest one in the tests. This time round, in my Segaris game, I'll probably be using the Kalis. Stats look broadly similar (https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkyujqewkp4jn ... 1.jpg?dl=0), somewhat thinner hull but MUCH stronger shields, so reckon it should be adequate for the job.

[mr.WHO]

I think the YT explenation movie link proves that Terrans are faster in both combat and travel due to how well they acellerate/deaccelerate.

You can spam boosters and abuse travel drives to rudiculous levels in combat.
Their travel drive, while slower at top speed has much better charge and acceleration time so they actually waste less time to reach top speed.
It seem other travel drives are in fact slower, unless it's really, REALLY big sector when they can unravel their top speed for long time.

[GCU Grey Area]

I think the YT explenation movie link proves that Terrans are faster in both combat and travel due to how well they acellerate/deaccelerate.

You can spam boosters and abuse travel drives to rudiculous levels in combat.
Their travel drive, while slower at top speed has much better charge and acceleration time so they actually waste less time to reach top speed.
It seem other travel drives are in fact slower, unless it's really, REALLY big sector when they can unravel their top speed for long time.

Agreed. Terran engines also work well with their freighters. Got a Baldric yesterday to haul stuff for my HQ research projects & was escorting it around personally (since it's the only M freighter I currently possess). Noticed that while it might have a slower top speed (in travel mode) than other M freighters, however the rate at which it gets to that top speed is simply phenomenal. Particularly useful in sectors such as Grand Exchange where there's a lot of course/speed changes to avoid all the rocks.

[mr.WHO]

I'm currently flying Katana with Terran engines and I enjoy it more that my trusty Nemesis with Paranid engines - Katana is much more reactive and drift much less than Nemesis.
It feels more like heavy fighter, than corvette.

Somehow I also see better survival rate for Katana when controlled by NPC pilots.
I seriously consider wide spread usage of Katana in my fleet as other M-size ships seem to die awfully easy.

[GCU Grey Area]

I'm currently flying Katana with Terran engines and I enjoy it more that my trusty Nemesis with Paranid engines - Katana is mych more reactive and drift much less than Nemesis.
It feels more like heavy fighter, than corvette.

Same here. Lovely ship. Have no desire whatsoever to change it's engines (Terran Combat mk3) to something faster. When I've got the resources to start modding it might try some of the other options than my usual favourites (which generally just provide more raw speed). Maybe see what happens if I start modding it specifically to increase boost & some of those arcane travel mode attributes. Really can't wait to start tinkering with it, but right now that modding workbench looks like a bottomless money pit that I simply can't afford.

[grapedog]

I'm currently flying Katana with Terran engines and I enjoy it more that my trusty Nemesis with Paranid engines - Katana is much more reactive and drift much less than Nemesis.
It feels more like heavy fighter, than corvette.

Somehow I also see better survival rate for Katana when controlled by NPC pilots.
I seriously consider wide spread usage of Katana in my fleet as other M-size ships seem to die awfully easy.

I haven't tried the katana yet, but i was doubting it would replace my nemesis. Even if it comes close or beats it, that will be great, i love more choice. My only issue with the nemesis has always been handling. All the Ms handle like boats.

[soladept]

I'm currently flying Katana with Terran engines and I enjoy it more that my trusty Nemesis with Paranid engines - Katana is much more reactive and drift much less than Nemesis.
It feels more like heavy fighter, than corvette.

Somehow I also see better survival rate for Katana when controlled by NPC pilots.
I seriously consider wide spread usage of Katana in my fleet as other M-size ships seem to die awfully easy.

I haven't tried the katana yet, but i was doubting it would replace my nemesis. Even if it comes close or beats it, that will be great, i love more choice. My only issue with the nemesis has always been handling. All the Ms handle like boats.

I feel like the Katana has a bit better handling than the Nemesis, and you do have one less forward gun but the Katana gains in durability and I find myself liking that

you might want to take a look at the Yaki Kuraokami... its essentialy a Yaki modifed version of the Nemesis and i think its handling may be superior to the default Nemesis.

[mr.WHO]

I feel like the Katana has a bit better handling than the Nemesis, and you do have one less forward gun but the Katana gains in durability and I find myself liking that

In my Nemesis I was using 4xBolt + 1 tracked missile launcher that I never used.
This means Katana was even an upgrade for me, because Terran 4xBolts are superior.

I haven't moded my Katana yet vs my modded Nemesis, so it has potential to be even better.

[Alm888]

Have a look at the engine boost times - terran engines are far superior in that regard. Like 12s (PAR, combat) vs 19s (TER, combat). I barely see my shield go down because of boosting out of combat. In fact, for the very first time I'm using boost during dogfights _because_ I don't deplete my main defense layer.

Combat engine is way better in everything except a very long straight line. Also don't just exit travel mode but actively stop the ship (backspace is the default bind, I think).

Mk3 small combat engine is very, very good.

Sorry, guys/girls, but no sell.
TER engines are the worst, period.
1) Being painfully slow most of the time, but ridiculously fast for 19 seconds (and 0% shield afterwards) is what AVGN called a "Two Gear Diarrhea". Need I remind you that you can not meaningfully maneuver while in boost, so "dashing blindly in a straight line" is all the TER engines can do. Good luck with your aiming!
2) Base speed is what determines most (except for acceleration which is determined by mass) derivative parameters: strafe, rotation, boost and travel speeds. By giving up on base speeds you are making your ship numb and sluggish. Sure, TER ships are adequate in strafe/rotation with TER engines, but with ARG or PAR (ther heck, even TEL!) engines they would be even more nimble;
3) If you are boosting out of combat with full shields, then you are a coward. Have you ever been in a situation where 3 P and 4 M are showering you from all sides? If you have been and survived due to your shields holding up just enough for you to boost out, then you are, again, attributing shields' awesomeness to engines. A ship with SPL engines would do just the same plus more -- the engines would allow you to slump away on cruise speed without any shielding. With TER engines: you've lost your shielding -- you are dead, no if-s or but-s. Again, without an awesome shields TER engines are garbage.
4) AI pilots do not know when to retreat: they pull back when they have ~20% of shielding left. In this sense, having a thick hull (Chimera = 6000HP) and weak, but fast-recharging shield is preferred, as if a squishy but shielded fighter has lost 80% of its shielding it means it is basically finished, because the remaining 20% will go down while it turns and after that… no shields = no boost Again, a Balaur at least can slump away.

I think the YT explenation movie link proves that Terrans are faster in both combat and travel due to how well they acellerate/deaccelerate.

You can spam boosters and abuse travel drives to rudiculous levels in combat.
Their travel drive, while slower at top speed has much better charge and acceleration time so they actually waste less time to reach top speed.
It seem other travel drives are in fact slower, unless it's really, REALLY big sector when they can unravel their top speed for long time.

All what was shown is applicable to any ship and engine. You can tap boost with any ship. I've been doing that since version 2.60. Also, yes, the-flight-assist-off technique is a powerful tool, but it works even better with SPL engines. It is, yet again, "bad engines + ace pilot" situation. The engines are so bad that one can not fly casually and must improve: learn how to brake with forward thrust, how to fly rear-first and shoot back and so on.

[mr.WHO]

1) Being painfully slow most of the time, but ridiculously fast for 19 seconds (and 0% shield afterwards) is what AVGN called a "Two Gear Diarrhea". Need I remind you that you can not meaningfully maneuver while in boost, so "dashing blindly in a straight line" is all the TER engines can do. Good luck with your aiming!
2) Base speed is what determines most (except for acceleration which is determined by mass) derivative parameters: strafe, rotation, boost and travel speeds. By giving up on base speeds you are making your ship numb and sluggish. Sure, TER ships are adequate in strafe/rotation with TER engines, but with ARG or PAR (ther heck, even TEL!) engines they would be even more nimble;
3) If you are boosting out of combat with full shields, then you are a coward. Have you ever been in a situation where 3 P and 4 M are showering you from all sides? If you have been and survived due to your shields holding up just enough for you to boost out, then you are, again, attributing shields' awesomeness to engines. A ship with SPL engines would do just the same plus more -- the engines would allow you to slump away on cruise speed without any shielding. With TER engines: you've lost your shielding -- you are dead, no if-s or but-s. Again, without an awesome shields TER engines are garbage.
4) AI pilots do not know when to retreat: they pull back when they have ~20% of shielding left. In this sense, having a thick hull (Chimera = 6000HP) and weak, but fast-recharging shield is preferred, as if a squishy but shielded fighter has lost 80% of its shielding it means it is basically finished, because the remaining 20% will go down while it turns and after that… no shields = no boost Again, a Balaur at least can slump away.

You really delue yourself:

1) 19 seconds of boost is several times more than you need, because even with 0% shield Terrans can just microjump to safety via instant travel drive.
2) Not really, other races might be faster, but are less nimble and response slower (e.g. accelleration/deacceleration/drift), make Terran engine even better in dogfight.
3) That makes Terran even more better - you can stay at combat much longer and even with 20% you can boost to safety and the travel drive.
4) I see plenty of AI boosting away just fine during the combat. If anything Terran engine booster require less shield buffer, thus there is more likely for AI to actually boost to meaningful distance. With other races when you're low or no shields booster and travel drive become useless.

[Alm888]

You really delu(d)e yourself:

1) 19 seconds of boost is several times more than you need, because even with 0% shield Terrans can just microjump to safety via instant travel drive.

One second of boost is all I need to be safe. One. Cruising speed will do the rest.

2) Not really, other races might be faster, but are less nimble and response slower (e.g. accelleration/deacceleration/drift), make Terran engine even better in dogfight.

Nope. Turning speeds are determined by cruising speed, not acceleration. Other engines are superior in this;

3) That makes Terran even more better - you can stay at combat much longer and even with 20% you can boost to safety and the travel drive.

Excellent shields make Terrans better; the engines are just dragging them down (into an early graves);

4) I see plenty of AI boosting away just fine during the combat. If anything Terran engine booster require less shield buffer, thus there is more likely for AI to actually boost to meaningful distance.

IMO, there is no such thing as "not enough shield buffer" for S (and, probably M) class ships. You either trigger the boost, or you do not. Even the slightest boost will disrupt enemy's aim/bullet collision prediction. No need to hold the boost button like fear-paralyzed and zip 20 km away only to return into combat half a minute later (at 189 m/s ). One small tap and you are safe. For L/XL ships, maybe this can come in handy (I've experienced the "Too Close to Graviton Turrets" and "Get Off me Pesky M's! I Need to Travel Mode Away ASAP" situations).

With other races when you're low or no shields booster and travel drive become useless.

With all races if an AI is out of shields, boost becomes useless. The AI does not know how to "tap boost".

[mr.WHO]

Nope. Turning speeds are determined by cruising speed, not acceleration. Other engines are superior in this;

Out of all 3 katana is most nimble. Dragon might be faster, but turn like a brick. Additionally Terran egines and shields gives you more boost & recharge at any give moment, plus very fast travel jump.

One second of boost is all I need to be safe. One. Cruising speed will do the rest.

Not really, one second boost is nothing in big fight, especially if you're near 0% shields and your non-Terran travel drive is locked, because you got shot a second ago.
One second boost to 0% shields in with other engines is death sentence as long as you got hit only once to reset travel drive timer. With Terran the timer is non-existant and you can boost far enough that absolutely no one will be able to hit you in the time you need your travel drive to kick in.

[Alm888]

Nope. Turning speeds are determined by cruising speed, not acceleration. Other engines are superior in this;

Out of all 3 katana is most nimble. Dragon might be faster, but turn like a brick. Additionally Terran egines and shields gives you more boost & recharge at any give moment, plus very fast travel jump.

Why are you so inclined on using the strawman's fallacy on me? I don't know an engine called "katana". Try installing a good engine (like, SPL M Combat Mk4) on a Terran corvette and experience how real dexterity feels.
Hint: More engines -- more dexterity, and both Nemesis and Dragon have only one engine. This also goes for Cormorant -- it is twice as nimble as any other Commonwealth M transport due to the virtue of having two engines, even though being twice as heavy denies it any gain in linear speed over, let's say, Mercury.

One second of boost is all I need to be safe. One. Cruising speed will do the rest.

Not really, one second boost is nothing in big fight, especially if you're near 0% shields and your non-Terran travel drive is locked, because you got shot a second ago.
One second boost to 0% shields in with other engines is death sentence as long as you got hit only once to reset travel drive timer. With Terran the timer is non-existant and you can boost far enough that absolutely no one will be able to hit you in the time you need your travel drive to kick in.

The moment shielding reaches 0% on my Chimera denotes I've finished warming up and now the combat proper begins! And my Chimera has default 6100HP (will probably switch to +HP-Drag blue mod to raise it 7200+ HP).

[mr.WHO]

Why are you so inclined on using the strawman's fallacy on me? I don't know an engine called "katana". Try installing a good engine (like, SPL M Combat Mk4) on a Terran corvette and experience how real dexterity feels.
Hint: More engines -- more dexterity, and both Nemesis and Dragon have only one engine. This also goes for Cormorant -- it is twice as nimble as any other Commonwealth M transport due to the virtue of having two engines, even though being twice as heavy denies it any gain in linear speed over, let's say, Mercury.

Because I don't need Katana to be anymore nimble - hypersesitive ships are as bad as unresponsive ships for me. I don't need more agility to trade off for instant-travel drive.

Split don't need travel drive, because their speed.
Terrans don't need speed, because of their travel drive.

Split have high speed, but more drift and acc/deacceleration problems.
Terrans have low speed, but less drift and acc/deacceleration problems.

To me it seems like you try to make a Terran ship to become a Split ship - it's no suprise that you fail and think they are trash.

Why not simply stick to Split ships then?

[AsadullinIF]

Please!! Please make the Katana seat a little higher - cant see anything. That plastic big thingies on the left and right...They block half of the screen. Whose brilliant idea was it? What for? Why?

[mr.WHO]

Please!! Please make the Katana seat a little higher - cant see anything. That plastic big thingies on the left and right...They block half of the screen. Whose brilliant idea was it? What for? Why?

+1

But I think the real limiter might the the front window glass - if you jump to the niche on the sides and switch to external view you'll see your player model sticking 2/3 of the body outside the window