Russia-Ukraine War

[Warenwolf]

You're just disappointed that the $5 Billions was sunk into the Maidan uprising for nothing. By the way, what kind of job did sleepys son uh "Hunter" have had in the Ukraine?

PS he is not my King, it just seems obvious to me......and i dislike aristocrats

Are you celebrating occupation of Ukraine here or what? I don't really get your line of thought here?

[EGO_Aut]

You're just disappointed that the $5 Billions was sunk into the Maidan uprising for nothing. By the way, what kind of job did sleepys son uh "Hunter" have had in the Ukraine?

PS he is not my King, it just seems obvious to me......and i dislike aristocrats

Are you celebrating occupation of Ukraine here or what? I don't really get your line of thought here?

So this is all you have to say?
Nothing about Burisma or the dismiss of a prosecurer of a foreign land.........ok

[greypanther]

26 September 1938, Berlin, Germany:

I have really in these years pursued a practical peace policy. I have approached all apparently impossible problems with the firm resolve to solve them peacefully even when there was the danger of making more or less serious renunciations on Germany’s part. I myself am a front-line soldier and I know how grave a thing war is. I wanted to spare the German people such an evil. Problem after problem I have tackled with the set purpose to make every effort to render possible a peaceful solution.
The most difficult problem which faced me was the relation between Germany and Poland. There was a danger that the conception of a ‘heredity enmity’ might take possession of our people and of the Polish people. That I wanted to prevent.
I know quite well that I should not have succeeded if Poland at that time had had a democratic constitution. For these democracies which are overflowing with phrases about peace are the most bloodthirsty instigators of war. But Poland at that time was governed by no democracy but by a man. In the course of barely a year it was possible to conclude an agreement which, in the first instance for a period of ten years, on principle removed the danger of a conflict. We are all convinced that this agreement will bring with it a permanent pacification. We realize that here are two peoples which must live side by side and that neither of them can destroy the other. A state with a population of thirty-three millions will always strive for an access to the sea. A way to an understanding had therefore to be found ….
‘He will either accept this offer and now at last give to the Germans their freedom, or we will go and fetch this freedom for ourselves.’
And now before us stands the last problem that must be solved and will be solved. It is the last territorial claim which I have to make in Europe, but it is the claim from which I will not recede and which, God willing, I will make good ….
I have only a few statements still to make. I am grateful to Mr Chamberlain for all his efforts. I have assured him that the German people desires nothing else than peace, but I have also told him that I cannot go back behind the limits set to our patience. I have further assured him, and I repeat it here, that when this problem is solved there is for Germany no further territorial problem in Europe.
And I have further assured him that at the moment when Czechoslovakia solves her problems, that means when the Czechs have come to terms with their other minorities, and that peaceably and not through oppression, then I have no further interest in the Czech state. And that is guaranteed to him! We want no Czechs!
But in the same way I desire to state before the German people that with regard to the problem of the Sudeten Germans my patience is now at an end! I have made Mr Benes an offer which is nothing but the carrying into effect of what he himself has promised. The decision now lies in his hands: peace or war. He will either accept this offer and now at last give to the Germans their freedom or we will go and fetch this freedom for ourselves.

Change some of the words, places and very similar to a recent speech out of Moscow. I knew the insane Papa Putin was a big fan of Papa Stalin, but never would have guessed he was a fan of Adolf...

Just hope he doesn't follow that role model too far.

[Warenwolf]

You're just disappointed that the $5 Billions was sunk into the Maidan uprising for nothing. By the way, what kind of job did sleepys son uh "Hunter" have had in the Ukraine?

PS he is not my King, it just seems obvious to me......and i dislike aristocrats

Are you celebrating occupation of Ukraine here or what? I don't really get your line of thought here?

So this is all you have to say?
Nothing about Burisma or the dismiss of a prosecurer of a foreign land.........ok

I asked you a question and you are avoiding the discussion it seems but rather coming with yet another random statement and also reusing some of the call names Trump had for Biden (before that).

Again - I ask you to explain your line of thought for us here.

[greypanther]

BUT...

Listening to the oh so great liar BOJO this afternoon, muttering on about harsh sanctions, ( which it turns out are not even new ones! ) how Putin is doing evil, I couldn't help but notice a huge amount of hypocrisy in the " West. " Wasn't Iraq or Afghanistan " ( et al ) sovereign states then?

Bloody sickens me just how little things have changed since the end of the First World War, indeed since the founding of " civilisation. " A few so superior old men, ruining things for the majority. I suspect without this " ruling class, " the world would be a much better place.

Oh and remove organised religion whilst you are at it...

Hopeless idealist me? Surely not.

[Warenwolf]

I couldn't help but notice a huge amount of hypocrisy in the " West. " Wasn't Iraq or Afghanistan " ( et al ) sovereign states then?

As I have stated on this forum long ago - the West has tendency to be very selective in its moral outrages. I also butted my head with more nationalistic US members of this forum, over foreign policy adventurism in ME (I think even you participated in these threads back then).

That being said, you should also notice that Western foreign policy is used in this thread to justify similar behavior by Putin. Except you know - West left Afghanistan and Iraq. Putin tends to expand his fiefdom (parts of Georgia, Crimea and now, formally at least, eastern parts of Ukraine). So similar but not exactly same

[EGO_Aut]

Are you celebrating occupation of Ukraine here or what? I don't really get your line of thought here?

So this is all you have to say?
Nothing about Burisma or the dismiss of a prosecurer of a foreign land.........ok

I asked you a question and you are avoiding the discussion it seems but rather coming with yet another random statement and also reusing some of the call names Trump had for Biden (before that).

Again - I ask you to explain your line of thought for us here.

How dare you to tease me like that?
I have explained my line, you can re read it here.
If you have missed something or ask in a gentle way. Then i can try to explain it again.

I'm not a Putin fan, but I find it wrong how the corrupt leaders of Ukraine are driving their country into the wall at the expense of innocent people.

[Warenwolf]

So this is all you have to say?
Nothing about Burisma or the dismiss of a prosecurer of a foreign land.........ok

I asked you a question and you are avoiding the discussion it seems but rather coming with yet another random statement and also reusing some of the call names Trump had for Biden (before that).

Again - I ask you to explain your line of thought for us here.

How dare you to tease me like that?
I have explained my line, you can re read it here.
If you have missed something or ask in a gentle way. Then i can try to explain it again.

I'm not a Putin fan, but I find it wrong how the corrupt leaders of Ukraine are driving their country into the wall at the expense of innocent people.

[greypanther]

As I have stated on this forum long ago - the West has tendency to be very selective in its moral outrages. I also butted my head with more nationalistic US members of this forum, over foreign policy adventurism in ME (I think even you participated in these threads back then).

That being said, you should also notice that Western foreign policy is used in this thread to justify similar behavior by Putin. Except you know - West left Afghanistan and Iraq. Putin tends to expand his fiefdom (parts of Georgia, Crimea and now, formally at least, eastern parts of Ukraine). So similar but not exactly same

I think you are right, I seem to remember some of that. As for Iraq and Afghanistan, the West left, but just look at the cost in human life and suffering. How many dead? Papa Putin has an awful long way to go to match the West's' list of " just " cause(s). Of course, depending on the course he chooses, he could leave that number of dead far behind.

I just hope it doesn't get worse, indeed much worse. I hope Xi Jinping doesn't take any of this developing disaster, as a green light to reclaiming his lost territory of the descendants of Chang Kai Shek. Fancy fighting a combined Russia and China? Again, I refer people to the book I linked earlier in the thread. Past echoes of now.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stand-2015-Ill ... C75&sr=1-1

[fiksal]

You're just disappointed that the $5 Billions was sunk into the Maidan uprising for nothing. By the way, what kind of job did sleepys son uh "Hunter" have had in the Ukraine?

PS he is not my King, it just seems obvious to me......and i dislike aristocrats

amateur attempt
you forget I never said what country I consider home.


I know you dont dislike aristocrats, and kings, and dictators, and nationalists. Prove me wrong. Just describe what you think of Putin to me in your harshest words. (and Trump for extra credit, but only in a couple words, to keep this thread on topic)


on the second thought, don't. We really have nothing to discuss with you, I strongly suspect

[felter]

I honestly think Putin has lost it and is no longer 100% in control of his brain. It wasn't that long ago that it was suspected that he has Parkinson’s disease and with his current erratic behaviour it's making me think there is something seriously wrong with him, he has even been verbally attacking his own allies recently, in public too, something he once wouldn't have done. Something in him has changed, and not for the better, hopefully someone will be brave enough to put a stop to it all before things go too far.

If he doesn't get stopped then it's, so now that WW3 is about to begin, who do you think will be on Putin's side. I was thinking China is starting to look more than a little-bit unstable right now, and they have desires on Taiwan and I think they are closely watching what is happening with Russia and Ukraine and if Russia do try to take over Ukraine I suspect China will do the same with Taiwan, putting them in bed alongside Russia. Of course there is also North Korea, they will side with China. There is also a good chance that Iran will side with them and of course Syria will back Russia. Can't think of any others offhand, but I'm sure there are a couple of others who will side with them. Of course, whoever is left over will be on the other side of things.

The next one will be who do you think will be the first to drop a nuke on an enemy faction. Personally, I think it will be Israel who will nuke Iran back to the Stone Age, what happens after that is anyone's guess, but I doubt it will be good. Happy Days we live in.

[Vertigo 7]

I honestly think Putin has lost it and is no longer 100% in control of his brain. It wasn't that long ago that it was suspected that he has Parkinson’s disease and with his current erratic behaviour it's making me think there is something seriously wrong with him, he has even been verbally attacking his own allies recently, in public too, something he once wouldn't have done. Something in him has changed, and not for the better, hopefully someone will be brave enough to put a stop to it all before things go too far.

If he doesn't get stopped then it's, so now that WW3 is about to begin, who do you think will be on Putin's side. I was thinking China is starting to look more than a little-bit unstable right now, and they have desires on Taiwan and I think they are closely watching what is happening with Russia and Ukraine and if Russia do try to take over Ukraine I suspect China will do the same with Taiwan, putting them in bed alongside Russia. Of course there is also North Korea, they will side with China. There is also a good chance that Iran will side with them and of course Syria will back Russia. Can't think of any others offhand, but I'm sure there are a couple of others who will side with them. Of course, whoever is left over will be on the other side of things.

The next one will be who do you think will be the first to drop a nuke on an enemy faction. Personally, I think it will be Israel who will nuke Iran back to the Stone Age, what happens after that is anyone's guess, but I doubt it will be good. Happy Days we live in.

Maybe it's inevitable. Wealth inequality is at an all-time high around the globe. RWNJs clamoring for civil war. White supremacists are more active today than they've been in decades. The recent military coup in Myanmar. China and North Korea getting uppity, as you mentioned (though hardly out of character for North Korea, and really China for that matter). Middle East continues to be a shit show. Putin and his puppets are just icing on the turd cake. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we do end up engulfed in another world war.

And ya know what, maybe we deserve it. Maybe we even need it. Clearly the lessons of history are not enough to move us forward so maybe another world war is needed to remind people that actions have consequences. Just maybe it'd be enough to humble those in power.

[fiksal]

I honestly think Putin has lost it and is no longer 100% in control of his brain. It wasn't that long ago that it was suspected that he has Parkinson’s disease and with his current erratic behaviour it's making me think there is something seriously wrong with him, he has even been verbally attacking his own allies recently, in public too, something he once wouldn't have done. Something in him has changed, and not for the better, hopefully someone will be brave enough to put a stop to it all before things go too far.

could be, but then how sane are hardcore ex KGB are, even those that are partly office workers.

Russia excels at creating a cult of personality to the point where people believe in Tsars again. He might be mistakenly think this way of himself, or he might be just old and frail.

One curios thing about Russian politics, two opposites exist in harmony
- strong nationalism, faith in the king
- and absolute distrust in government, trust in money, and desire to steal bullets from guns, wheels off tanks.

Which of these is stronger is yet to be seen. Nationalism doesnt put food on table and buys Porsches, so there's that.

Simple soldiers on the other hand have much more grim choices to chose from.

If he doesn't get stopped then it's, so now that WW3 is about to begin, who do you think will be on Putin's side. I was thinking China is starting to look more than a little-bit unstable right now, and they have desires on Taiwan and I think they are closely watching what is happening with Russia and Ukraine and if Russia do try to take over Ukraine I suspect China will do the same with Taiwan, putting them in bed alongside Russia. Of course there is also North Korea, they will side with China. There is also a good chance that Iran will side with them and of course Syria will back Russia. Can't think of any others offhand, but I'm sure there are a couple of others who will side with them. Of course, whoever is left over will be on the other side of things.

The next one will be who do you think will be the first to drop a nuke on an enemy faction. Personally, I think it will be Israel who will nuke Iran back to the Stone Age, what happens after that is anyone's guess, but I doubt it will be good. Happy Days we live in.

At this point maybe it's "healthy" for Russia to have a war with someone who is its match. Maybe that's how Russia will flash out its last wishes for an empire.

Russia backed away twice from fighting NATO in Syria. So the track record isnt great for when other forces are nearby. Is this the best as it gets?

Still. Allies:
Putin surely picks among those who not going to stand by him.

Belorus, oh sure, not sure with what army though.
Kazakhstan, - unlikely.
Crimea and Donbas? Can throw some rocks.
Chechnya - they do have some experience, though that experience usually involves killing Russians not fighting with them.
Apparently Kremlin feels kinship with North Korea, does North Korea think they have nothing to lose? Did they ask China for permission?
Now China? It seems it likes money more than nuclear war, I think China can total up the sum of that outcome. Does China know Russia sees China with contempt?



for your information, or entertainment, here's what local and vocal minority thinks of Putin's war. Typed and shortened for speed, translated. A well known publicist:

Kremlin understood it doesnt need complex stories
Russians will eat it up

Ukraine is looking over wondering who Donbas is fighting with, as everything explodes.
Terrified children and women are evacuated over imaginary enemy, but are sent out for real. Some are left along the road.

Tragedy of Donbas must bring tears. Scamming is everywhere.
Eventually those women will find the authors of the show.

TV needs blood. There must be dead. It'll be local dead first, from morgues, burned sufficiently and demonstrated

Putin laughingly, tries to scare the world with preparing nuclear weapons. 10 billion dollars already paid for the show.

Big, bloody war will happen. A made up war is still a war. It has one cause, one person, inside one head.

[Incubi]

Vertigo 7

Maybe it's inevitable. Wealth inequality is at an all-time high around the globe. RWNJs clamoring for civil war. White supremacists are more active today than they've been in decades. The recent military coup in Myanmar. China and North Korea getting uppity, as you mentioned (though hardly out of character for North Korea, and really China for that matter). Middle East continues to be a shit show. Putin and his puppets are just icing on the turd cake. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we do end up engulfed in another world war.

And ya know what, maybe we deserve it. Maybe we even need it. Clearly the lessons of history are not enough to move us forward so maybe another world war is needed to remind people that actions have consequences. Just maybe it'd be enough to humble those in power.

The world is going to shit because of polarity politics. Extreme opposites poking at each other hoping the other makes a move to justify their own actions and no one ever considering that if you need to justify your actions, maybe you shouldn't do it.
We know the lessons of the past, but it is always someone else's fault it is repeating and not our own. But I wouldn't say that we deserve this.

Propaganda has reached new heights of bull enabled by an average person's inability to finish reading an article before jumping to a conclusion. That has made propaganda really easy to use in ridiculous extremes. I recently read an article explaining how the Japanese otherism is not as bad as white privilege, while failing to truly acknowledge what otherism was or what privilege meant or even the point of the article. No need, no one would read it anyway. Threats and social ostracizing and refusal to listen to anything but that annoying buzz in our own heads is how diplomacy is today. This is repeated in the backyard, public places, and on a global arena. Special interest groups will call out other special interest groups for manipulating the poor and uneducated for votes and power, while doing the exact same thing in a manner that makes them look like heroes for their targeted emotionally charged audience.

What is happening in Russia and Ukraine is no exception. There is a lot of bull happening in the Ukraine that should be stopped, Racism, violence, the treatment of disabled orphans (literally every country, right?) just to name a few of the things that you probably haven't heard of. Why? Because Putin's interest in the country and the West interest in opposing him blinds everyone to anything that is not directly part of that little bit of Polarity politics. So, no real issue is being solved or addressed on any side. Political extremism is killing all.

So no, I do not think we deserve this. There is an opportunity here that cannot be gained with violence or ostracizing each other. I just can't put my finger on it because it requires somehow getting people to listen to each other and find solutions within reason. Perhaps teaching what propaganda is and when it is good and when it is bad? But somehow make it common knowledge? I don't know I don't have solutions to the problems that I recognize.

I refrained from focusing too much on specific examples because sometimes it is important to smell the latrine of the big picture.

[fiksal]

I just can't put my finger on it because it requires somehow getting people to listen to each other and find solutions within reason

No argument there, but seems like it's for the next generation.

[Vertigo 7]

What is happening in Russia and Ukraine is no exception. There is a lot of bull happening in the Ukraine that should be stopped, Racism, violence, the treatment of disabled orphans (literally every country, right?) just to name a few of the things that you probably haven't heard of. Why? Because Putin's interest in the country and the West interest in opposing him blinds everyone to anything that is not directly part of that little bit of Polarity politics. So, no real issue is being solved or addressed on any side. Political extremism is killing all.

That's the thing. I don't believe Ukraine's sovereignty is a matter of politics any more than I believe COVID vaccines and masks are. Yet there's always someone that takes what should be a commonsense thing and turn it into a political bludgeon. For example, why is it around the world that nearly everyone is condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine... that is, everyone except the GOP? The Oompa Loompa king called Putin's move "genius" and wished we would do that to Central America and the lil MAGA minions are getting giddy with excitement to do that...

Seriously... WTF?

If there's no more rationality left to be had, then what's left? Don't get me wrong, I would rather there be some alternative, but at this point, the blood is in the water and the sharks are circling, as it were. We may not have a choice in the long or short term. If/when war comes, I'll find a way to make my peace with that and move forward.

[jlehtone]

Some people have the view it as "well, it's got more of population type X, so why shouldn't they break away and be annexed by another country?"

Doesn't USA have places with large Mexican/Italian/Chinese/Irish/West African population? GOP appreciates, if those areas are annexed to countries of origin?

[Vertigo 7]

Some people have the view it as "well, it's got more of population type X, so why shouldn't they break away and be annexed by another country?"

Doesn't USA have places with large Mexican/Italian/Chinese/Irish/West African population? GOP appreciates, if those areas are annexed to countries of origin?

As much as I wish this was a satirical take, in all likelihood the GOP would quietly welcome the annexation of certain demographical regions so they could send in military forces under the guise of retaking them back and clear out the population for white people to move in. Fortunately, that's not likely to occur. It'd be a hard sell just to get off the ground and would be a non-starter.

[Chips]

Either way, it's clear that Russia had no intentions on letting Ukraine self-govern, unless Ukraine's government wanted to join Russia. That's the only outcome that Putin desired, while in contrast, NATO would have been fine to let Ukraine do as it pleases, even if that meant Ukraine didn't join NATO.

So tell me why not to stay neutral?
Why provoke with joining NATO, just because of the hope of eventually regaining lost ground?

Hate to drag this back a few pages, but lets start addressing some falacies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E ... _relations

Ukraine expressed the desire to join NATO in 2008, prior to Crimea issue. So "hope of eventually regaining lost ground" is a false statement, unless you wish to clarify it as meaning something else? (You don't seem to duck a lot of questions posed to you).

Furthermore, the government at the time had returned to a "remain neutral" until the Crimea was forcibly removed from Ukraine. The outcome of Russian interference with Crimea was the direct cause of Ukraine wishing to gain entry to NATO once more -- you can hypothesise it's to regain ground over self preservation, but I'd point out that NATO is a defence pact. If Ukraine joined and then started a war with Russia to retake the Crimea it'd be fighting alone unless Russia invaded.

The split of Crimea happened only after Ukraine had renounced the lease of the port to Russia, meaning they no longer had a deep sea port in the Black Sea unless they built their own. That was after the lease was extended if memory served, so it was a complete about turn and ... boom, suddenly little green men appeared and breakaway / independence.

Either research more or stop trying to make up history to satisfy your opinion.

[Incubi]

Some people have the view it as "well, it's got more of population type X, so why shouldn't they break away and be annexed by another country?"

Doesn't USA have places with large Mexican/Italian/Chinese/Irish/West African population? GOP appreciates, if those areas are annexed to countries of origin?

As much as I wish this was a satirical take, in all likelihood the GOP would quietly welcome the annexation of certain demographical regions so they could send in military forces under the guise of retaking them back and clear out the population for white people to move in.

Not as likely as some would have you think. This is done indirectly through gentrification as a result of the greed of a real estate and business rather than genocidal hate. The GOP is not a bunch of Alt Right hatemongers we are led to believe. True, an alt right person is more likely to be in the GOP than say a democrat, but it is not a defining feature of the GOP. Now I am not a fan of the GOP so please don't make me defend them any further In fact I think that if you pay attention to the type of propaganda being spread, you will find that hate and discrimination is not exclusive to the GOP any more than it is exclusive to America and white ruled nations. Polarity politics breeds hatred and hatred is bad no matter who is hating who, it never ends in equality or fairness.