Russia-Ukraine War

[mr.WHO]

there is nothing surprising if the army is commanded by a drug addict.
Shake off the noodles from your ears more often, which Ukrainian propaganda hangs on you.

In case of Nova Kahovka dam I never picked a side - both had benefits and cons in destroying it and both have a history of blowing up dams, if war objectives require it.

[notaterran]

Allegedly a Russian ammo depot, that's a lot of boom:

Link

[burger1]

Until the Russian attack helicopters can be dealt with keeping the armour in reserve makes sense. The f-16 will probably help just because of the bombs/missiles it can launch. Might lower cost and open up more munitions. The counter offensive is still going forward and making progress. Crimea land bridge might get cut. I think one news reported a 120k Russian troop build up by Kreminna.

[fiksal]

Shake off the noodles from your ears more often, which Ukrainian propaganda hangs on you.

Your post doesn't respond to what I said.

You and like your kind should remember by now I will never be on your side. For many reasons.

[felter]

Prigozhin may have been exiled to Belarus, but he is currently having a holiday in Russia, now that's what you call giving the bird to Putin.

[burger1]

Looks like Ukraine is getting cluster munitions to deal with the Russian trenches.

[Alan Phipps]

... but may well add to their future unexploded ordnance and mines clearance woes.

[mr.WHO]

When your country is already mined so much that it will take 70 years to demine, extra +10 years doesn't matter at all.


In my city, we excavate WW2 munittion basically at every construction site.
Last year there was some kind of big MOAB dig out in city center that require evacuation of a few blocks radius.


Unfortunately this will be part of daily life for Ukraine for decades to come.


Edit:
It could be worse, there are still dead fields in France from WW1 where there is still loads of unexploded ordnace and leftovers chemical weapons residue that is left untouched for 100+ years.

[Observe]

When your country is already mined so much that it will take 70 years to demine, extra +10 years doesn't matter at all.

Tell that to some child who steps on an unexploded American cluster bomb years from now after the war is ended. That is the reason 123 countries banned them with the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions.

The reason the U.S. has decided to provide these weapons now, is because the Ukraine 'spring offensive' is failing. Desperation begets ever more desperate measures. What's next? Chemical and biological weapons? Russia has plenty of chemical weapons and apparently has been using them. Excellent. We have stocks of those too.

Note: Last year, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki called the use of cluster bombs a “war crime". Does that now make Biden a war criminal?

[Falcrack]

When your country is already mined so much that it will take 70 years to demine, extra +10 years doesn't matter at all.

Tell that to some child who steps on an unexploded American cluster bomb years from now after the war is ended. That is the reason 123 countries banned them with the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions.

The reason the U.S. has decided to provide these weapons now, is because the Ukraine 'spring offensive' is failing. Desperation begets ever more desperate measures. What's next? Chemical and biological weapons? Russia has plenty of chemical weapons and apparently has been using them. Excellent. We have stocks of those too.

Note: Last year, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki called the use of cluster bombs a “war crime". Does that now make Biden a war criminal?

For every child that steps on an unexploded cluster munition, there will be 100 children who step on mines deliberately laid by Russia. And the reference to Jen Psaki was in response to a question about the use of cluster bombs against civilians whether that was a war crime. If you are using cluster bombs against civilian populations, that would be a war crime. Not against Russian trenches to clear out enemy troops. It helps when you actually watch the full source video instead of just reading Russian propaganda spin to understand the context of a statement.

If the use of cluster munitions allows Ukraine to win and expel Russia by even a week or so sooner, that would save more lives than would be offset by the occasional dud cluster munitions going off. There is always a balance between risk and benefit, and in this case, the benefits of allowing Ukraine access to the large US stockpile of cluster munitions outweigh the risks of not providing them and leading to a prolonged war.

[burger1]

If the use of cluster munitions allows Ukraine to win and expel Russia by even a week or so sooner, that would save more lives than would be offset by the occasional dud cluster munitions going off. There is always a balance between risk and benefit, and in this case, the benefits of allowing Ukraine access to the large US stockpile of cluster munitions outweigh the risks of not providing them and leading to a prolonged war.

Pretty much. Likely to end up with more lives saved and injuries prevented. Opens up a supply of more effective and quickly available resources. Can also re-purpose the explosives apparently. Might be able to partially clear mine fields with them? Russias been using a variety of cluster munitions.

[mr.WHO]

Tell that to some child who steps on an unexploded American cluster bomb years from now after the war is ended. That is the reason 123 countries banned them with the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Except that Ukraine and Russia didn't sign the cluster munition ban.

Ukraine is already chalk full of unexploded Ukrainian and Russia cluster munition.
Having USA join the party doesn't change things for much worse...as I said most probably additional 10+ years of demining.


As for children blown up by cluster munition, it's a matter of of education - there is only a limited amount of designs to learn, so even a child is capable to reckognize, it if you tell them what to avoid.

Pretty much. Likely to end up with more lives saved and injuries prevented. Opens up a supply of more effective and quickly available resources. Can also re-purpose the explosives apparently. Might be able to partially clear mine fields with them? Russias been using a variety of cluster munitions.

Nope, de-mining with cluster munition is stupid. With 80% explosion rate of cluster munition, you clear one minefield, but create another one - it's counterproductive.

[Falcrack]

Ukraine is already chalk full of unexploded Ukrainian and Russia cluster munition.
Having USA join the party doesn't change things for much worse...as I said most probably additional 10+ years of demining.

I really doubt that this decision alone to send cluster munitions would add 10 years to the time needed to demine the country, considering how heavily mined it already is. It would probably take a bit more money and effort, but a similar amount of time.

[Warenwolf]

Pretty much. Likely to end up with more lives saved and injuries prevented. Opens up a supply of more effective and quickly available resources. Can also re-purpose the explosives apparently. Might be able to partially clear mine fields with them? Russias been using a variety of cluster munitions.

If I understand your post correctly - you can't open a bomblet and recycle explosive easily. Some sub-munitions are simply not safe to handle enough in order to disarm them. They HAVE to be destroyed on-site.

And finally not all mines can be cleared through overpreassure - actually most are very resistant towards such methods. And for civilian grade mine clearing - 100% clearance is the only grade acceptable. Overpreassure and similar methods are simply not reliable enough. Man with stick is still the best methodology (although new methods come around all the time, the fingers of the de-miner and their sensitivity is still alpha and omega)

source: the person I am living with who has exactly this type of training and no loses after 1156 field days (every operation was finished with entire team walking over the de-mined area hand in hand while locals watched) before switching career. So kinda expert at hand.

As for children blown up by cluster munition, it's a matter of of education - there is only a limited amount of designs to learn, so even a child is capable to reckognize, it if you tell them what to avoid.

Yeah, that is how kid's mind work.

Vegetation, deformation and discoloration and 90% of adults would not recognize on bomblets from everyday piece of discarded metal.
Like this one:
https://cat-uxo.com/explosive-hazards/s ... ubmunition

[mr.WHO]

Vegetation, deformation and discoloration and 90% of adults would not recognize on bomblets from everyday piece of discarded metal.

Education stuff is valid not only for children, but to adults as well.

Is it really that hard to understand the rule of caution? If your area was a battlefield, treat everything in the soil as potential explosives?

My home was such zone from WW2.
Even 20 years ago, it was still a general knowledge to be extra careful when digging stuff and what locations should be avoided (or at least never, ever dig a shovel into, if you value your life).
Hell, I had several artillery shells dug out literally from my backyard.


There is also that plain dumb part of population that no amount of education will help.
In my country there isn't a single year where police find some "collector" stashing WW2 shells in the basement, many having explosives still inside.

[Warenwolf]

Vegetation, deformation and discoloration and 90% of adults would not recognize on bomblets from everyday piece of discarded metal.

Education stuff is valid not only for children, but to adults as well.

Is it really that hard to understand the rule of caution? If your area was a battlefield, treat everything in the soil as potential explosives?

And the place I was born in was so in 90s - this is Europe, everyone's backyard was battlefield once upon the time so no internet points from me.


If you have effective and intensive educative programs, when compared to countries with no far reaching program (although that is practically non-existent - both lack of educational programs and at same time good enough statistics is a combo that never occurs) you may get 15% to 25% reduction in accidents (again problem with unreliable data). That is it...Anyone claiming more is looking for funding for his own project.

I have seen dog get killed and almost kill his own owner (not gonna describe it in detail since this forum is frequented by minors) when playing in area which was never a minefield due to mine or bomblet probably being lifted by heavy rains and drifting kilometers. No training would prevent that.
I have seen light street pole get snapped like a matchstick once an earth excavator triggered an unexploded bomb. No training would prevent what would have happened if I had driven the car just bit faster. Again omitting details.
I could write pages about this or the fact that Ukrainians farmers this very moment work their UXO infested fields in order to survive (no education can offset desperation from the need to live) but there is no point.

I wrote longer post (this is subject many of my friends work in and is close to my heart - and I could say they are best in Europe when it comes to UXO and de-mining work) but I think it is waste of time.

While using landmines and cluster munitions is reality of war (it is what it is) - but being flippant about something you clearly don't know much about and we who are non-Ukrainian don't need to deal with.... annoys me somewhat.

[mr.WHO]

And the place I was born in was so in 90s - this is Europe, everyone's backyard was battlefield once upon the time so no internet points from me.

If you have effective and intensive educative programs, when compared to countries with no far reaching program (although that is practically non-existent - both lack of educational programs and at same time good enough statistics is a combo that never occurs) you may get 15% to 25% reduction in accidents (again problem with unreliable data). That is it...Anyone claiming more is looking for funding for his own project.

I have seen dog get killed and almost kill his own owner (not gonna describe it in detail since this forum is frequented by minors) when playing in area which was never a minefield due to mine or bomblet probably being lifted by heavy rains and drifting kilometers. No training would prevent that.
I have seen light street pole get snapped like a matchstick once an earth excavator triggered an unexploded bomb. No training would prevent what would have happened if I had driven the car just bit faster. Again omitting details.
I could write pages about this or the fact that Ukrainians farmers this very moment work their UXO infested fields in order to survive (no education can offset desperation from the need to live) but there is no point.

I wrote longer post (this is subject many of my friends work in and is close to my heart - and I could say they are best in Europe when it comes to UXO and de-mining work) but I think it is waste of time.

While using landmines and cluster munitions is reality of war (it is what it is) - but being flippant about something you clearly don't know much about and we who are non-Ukrainian don't need to deal with.... annoys me somewhat.

Why are we talking about this like Ukrainians have any choice? They don't.
Their country is already mined like hell, they don't have of luxury to choose between yes and no, but rather if they want to play a life lottery to 2080s or to 2100s.

Still, I take your story about dog seriously, but again for Ukraine, the only choice will be not having dogs for certain areas for next 50 years.

...or breed and train this little fella like no tomorrow:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_(dog)

[EGO_Aut]

Why we are talking?....meanwhile in the future....child gets injured by mine...."made with pride in us"....Yes,yes, blame Putin.

I would say, never use banned stuff on your soil. Not nukes, uran ammo, or old mines or cluster ammo.

[mr.WHO]

I would say, never use banned stuff on your soil. Not nukes, uran ammo, or old mines or cluster ammo.

Have you seen the footages of Ukrainian Grad MLRS or Russian Uragan MLRS?
They use cluster munition as standard issue to solve accuracy problem.
All those moon like landscapes in the frontlines are those MLRS in action.


As grim as it looks like, there are things avaliable to Ukraine, that people post WW2 or post Balkan Wars didn't had:
Internet
Cheap widespread satelite image
AI

You can already track the frontline progression in near real time.
Combine it with satelite image to search for bomb craters and you could open source widely avaliable app with map of hazardous zones.
You could probably train AI to scrape and analyze the data from the internet, day one to last day of war (e.g. after a year some craters could already erode and be masked with grass).

If anything, this could help to plan and organize demining, plus it would archivize and keep track of sites that would normally be forgotten and missed till they claim their victim.

Post war, Ukraine will have a lot of drone and IT experts, so I wouldn't be suprised, if they would try to make a cost effective sweeper drone.
Like all those huge open farmlands in the south of Ukraine. These would be ideal for some kind of sweeper/plow drone.

[fiksal]

Why we are talking?....meanwhile in the future....child gets injured by mine...."made with pride in us"....Yes,yes, blame Putin.

I would say, never use banned stuff on your soil. Not nukes, uran ammo, or old mines or cluster ammo.

Don't start wars - I think is another good one. Many children would have been alive today.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if Putin's Z soldiers stayed in Russia's borders.

On the question of blame, I think it's not right to only blame Putin. The blame goes to all Russians that loudly or silently support him