[Mayhem 3] Renegades v5.4 - 7/2025

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VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

Scrap the battle missions part, i noticed only now they depend on fighting rank, not fleet power. Was it different before or am I just stupid? :D "Defend" is wierd still.

Regarding my posts, i just report bugs and odd behavior. I get your point, it's fine if you can't fix some stuff, it's also fine if it's intended. No pressure =)

"YOU would go about fixing the issue":
- Make an option in fleet menu for fleet commander to wait or not to wait for followers or docking fighters
For some fleets i do prefer not to wait, like Forsety and his 30 m6 buddies. For some i do, the hole point of fast carrier is to get those thick and nasty slow fighters in to fight and stay out of it itself, there is a kiting routine in fighters, when they fly away from target if shields are low. Make it an option in fleet menu for carriers to use it as main action. Griffon packed by verdandis - it unleashes fighters at capital and keep it's own distance from the fight. This is relevant in huge fleet battles when a big fleet of m2s and fighters with carriers are fighting enemy capitals. Usually carriers die first because they rush first along with fighters.
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

I think we have a difference in our understanding of how fighters behave right now, so when you ask for a change, it's just not fitting into place.

-"Make an option in fleet menu for fleet commander to wait or not to wait for followers or docking fighters"

First, regarding "fleet commander should wait for docking fighters":

Fighters in Mayhem 3 are by default not Fleet Members, they are Support Ships (assuming there's a carrier to dock at in the fleet, all fighters are made into support ships when you add them to a fleet).
Support ships don't know they are in a fleet. All they know is to do what their carrier tells them to do.

Fighters generally act as an extension of power for that carrier and engage at extreme range while the carrier itself tends to be far slower in moving to any target.
Should that carrier's target die, if there is a new target for the carrier, the fighters will engage that new target rather than dock up. This is intended so time is not wasted on unnecessary docking when a battle is raging.
Provided the carrier has no more nearby targets, or the carrier is commanded to move to another system, the fighters will dock. Support fighters are simply an extension of a carrier's power and have no knowledge they are in a fleet. They act as their carrier tells them to act.

There is no kiting routine for any fighters that I am aware of. I'm not sure what you are referring to. When their hull gets low enough, they will dock and repair at their carrier.

Second, regarding "fleet commander should wait for followers":

This has nothing to do with Support fighters, which as I say, have no knowledge of a fleet. They belong to a carrier and that's all they know. For NON fighters, fleets used to have a routine that would wait for followers if they got far behind when traveling from system to system. This is no longer true in Renegades because I felt having an entire fleet stop and wait for 1 lost follower was totally disrupting the game. However, I don't think this is what you are referring to.
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VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

"There is no kiting routine for any fighters that I am aware of"

When you observe battle in oos, you can see that ships in a fight, when their shield drops to 0%, start to fly away from damage source, then engage again. I don't know about code side, i see them doing it. When my TM looses it's shield it start to run away, then reengage after some time. "In system" battles it's less obvious. but fighters try once to break engagement range once they lose shields. Maybe it's unmodable, i don't know.

"Fighters generally act as an extension of power for that carrier and engage at extreme range while the carrier itself tends to be far slower in moving to any target."

Is it possible to make carrier make it's fighters fight the target but the carrier itself to keep distance with the target?

"However, I don't think this is what you are referring to."

This is what i mean, yes =) My way of thought is "you want your forces to be in a blob, not stretched in a line to die one by one". It is slow, yes, but hit like a truck in oos.

I just thought such things could be made the way fleet option made (like sand for repairs, you can toggle it).

Regarding Renegades. I've been hunting them oos, they gave me clues with "code parts" for some time then stopped. Now i just kill them with no clues. Did i have to hunt them in person from the beggining to progress and end the threat? Did i have to make the killing blow? Did i miss something or are they just sat killers for the rest of the game?
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

For OOS battles, I think things are pretty much simulated and you can't rely on the level of visual detail you are given for fighter behavior. For example, OOS your ships may be a tight ball while attacking an outpost, but as soon as you jump in, they all spread out almost magically. I think our language is saying different things. For me, the word "kiting" means staying out at maximum range while continuing to fire and circle an enemy that doesn't have sufficient range or tracking to hit you. That is not the same as disengaging and then re-engaging.

Carriers already try to keep range from a target. They close to just under their own maximum gun range and then start firing. The range a carrier tries to keep depends on it's loadout. The fighters will have launched and attacked the target far before that, assuming the 2 combatants are closing on each other from a long range. I don't think I'd want to try to change the carriers range from target in any other way, as it would force it to separate from it's own fleet and cause all sorts of grief, and be very difficult to deal with in code as well.

I don't agree that all fleet forces should be in a blob. This was how all the previous developers approached it and something I was very intent on changing for Renegades. Naval fleets do not engage in a blob. They send out their fighters to hit the enemy weak spots well out of range of the capital ships. This is now the default of Renegades. This has many benefits in actual play and not something I'm going to change. I love it that way. The single downside to this is that if you are sending one large fleet after another large fleet and you launch 50 fighters at range, they may not be alive by the time your main fleet engages and so they would be wasted. This is where you come in and where you have to manage the engagement.
Should you not want your support fighters to attack a distant target, then don't order the Carrier (or any fleet it's attached to) to attack that target while still at long range. Instead, move your Carrier/fleet closer to the target and then issue the attack order just as your capitals get into range. Then you'll have blob on blob action. This behavior allows YOU to choose when your fighters will engage. Prior to this, if you had a carrier with 50 fighters and you wanted to take out one stinking M6 on the other side of the system, you were forced to move your carrier very close to that target before it's fighters would engage at all. The same is true if you tried to attack a station with a carrier. Prior to this you had no control. You had plenty of fighters that could attack at long range and the game simply didn't let you. Total frustration.

Regarding Toggling this feature, to force fighters to only engage at close range, it is possible to do this in fleet settings, but it would only effect fighters owned by carriers in that fleet. This would also be a lot of work and I don't see the benefit, since you already have control over engagements.

You shouldn't need to be in-system with a renegade for it to drop a clue. You should be given a ton of clues, long before it runs out of clues.
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VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

*You should be given a ton of clues, long before it runs out of clues.*
Well, they gave me about 10 messages with same code parts with different flavor text and stopped giving anything. I have full code. Now they just die silently and just hinder my explorers.

Some feedback.
Honestly, there should be more flavor messages about what to do next, how to counter them. At least some information to point you in direction. Maybe every 10 killed sats tell you to keep hunting them. Knowing the game, i just suspect something bugged out when i kill them and nothing does happen.
Fleets stationed to monitor systems do not react to them, you have to point kill squads at them every time. Is it intended?
Keeping your eyes at the corner of your screen for another quickly disappearing text of where to catch them is more irritating then fun, Maybe log this text in log screen, like game does with ship losses. Sometimes it's just impossible to catch them as they disappear the moment they kill satellite far away from gates.
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

Upon killing the very first renegade, you should have been given a vital message: A system where you need to go, what to look for there. If you missed this or ignored it, you missed a lot. Look for it in your old messages.

Short of it is that you need to go that that system it specified and search for a ship wreck and scan it with your scanner and once you do, it will ask you for your code. Once you get past that, it will open up a gate to a previously inaccessible system where you will have a fight on your hands and a reward if you do well.

I don't think you're the only person who ignored that first message with the vital information in it and then been totally lost afterwards. Most don't ignore it, but some do. I may add something to help with that in a future release, but you know not all quests are meant to be simple and forgiving.

Yes, it's intended that fleets assigned to attack all enemies will not recognize renegades as an enemy. They are a neutral ship until they attack you, or you attack them, then they turn red. That's entirely intentional. They are renegades. They blend in until they don't.

Given you don't appear to like this, I suggest you go to your cheat menu and just turn it off.
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VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

You should make a mission entry or something with it's name =). In my case system name was inconvenient that i did recall it but not as a system name, bus a name of renegades faction or something. "Something importante has been staged in Anacreon's Kingdom" :)
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

Mission Entry is a very good suggestion.. Although, it's not technically a mission, so I'm not sure of the ramifications of doing so. still.. seems like it should be workable.
I'll add it to the list.

Glad you found the system. Good luck going in that last pocket .. many go in and few come out.
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VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

It went smoothly. Bonus in nice, except new border friction, which i was not prepared for ))

You can actually make a similar but more difficult threat, but in face of pirates and their heavily fortified system, that sits tight until you are recognised as a nation. After it start to send parties with fighters, m6's and m7's to raid your borders (and if successfully destroy some factories you loos credits from your account) or You either pay them ~5mil a cycle. But their system must be with m2's and defence platforms, so they are not as easy.

BTW after you fixed main guns, "m6 phantom" became ways overpowered for it's class, you should somehow balance it in price.

Is there a way to abort or fix buged out quest with a free ship or remove entry from mission list? I usually cannot reach them right away and when i finally there, the ship is nowhere to be seen and mission is stuck in the list.
Rallehop
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Rallehop »

Hello there, is it possible to build/buy weapons in this mod? I have noticed that the ship construction and AI loadouts seem to default to the highest dps option in it's slot, meaning some weapons like the Concussion Impulse Generator, Plasma Gun and Alpha Particle Cannon never gets installed on anything. I've been wanting to tinker a bit with my ship loadouts but i can't get my hands on the CIG's that i want. Help?
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Hector0x
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hector0x »

Rallehop wrote: Thu, 4. Jul 24, 12:42
Custom loadouts are entirely disabled. I was never a fan of the micromanagement that weapon production and templates required, so i automated loadouts back in zero hour. Renegades just inherited my decision, which is now deep embedded into so many scripts that it is probably impossible for the Renegades Dev to revert this back.

I realize now that i may have been a bit too selfish back then. I didn't expect that many people would care about custom ship loadouts and just assumed that everyone goes for highest Dps.
Rallehop
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Rallehop »

Hector0x wrote: Thu, 4. Jul 24, 16:35
Rallehop wrote: Thu, 4. Jul 24, 12:42
Custom loadouts are entirely disabled. I was never a fan of the micromanagement that weapon production and templates required, so i automated loadouts back in zero hour. Renegades just inherited my decision, which is now deep embedded into so many scripts that it is probably impossible for the Renegades Dev to revert this back.

I realize now that i may have been a bit too selfish back then. I didn't expect that many people would care about custom ship loadouts and just assumed that everyone goes for highest Dps.
Well, it probably is optimal to go for the highest DPS when all of the reasons to pick lower DPS weapons have been removed from the game, without weapon energy, and no weapons with any particularly unique characteristics like high projectile velocity or firerate. My personal desire here is just for the variety of it, it gets boring observing a fight if everyone's shooting the exact same weapon all the time so i try to mix things up when i can.

Anyway, there may be a way around the issue for me by building ships with the guns i want and stripping them, the template system still allows them to automatically equip the weapons so long as they are in storage. Ungraceful solution but i guess it'll do.
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Hector0x
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hector0x »

The idea for the fixed weapons was that i could later rebalance the ships themself.
So for example the Split would get 3 distinct corvettes like Appallox - expensive long range sniper, Tempestine - cheap short range brawler, Dragon - allrounder

This would also have reintroduced the visual projectile variety.
But then i never actually got to do it and only took that first step with the fixed loadouts.

Maybe someone else wants finish what i started. You don't need scripting and can just edit the laser compatibility in the TShips file. That's fairly easy and how i first got into X3 modding (Mayhem 3 Rebalanced).
Negmek
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Negmek »

> They send out their fighters to hit the enemy weak spots well out of range of the capital ships. This is now the default of Renegades.

I like the analogy with real life naval battles, but idk if the game is balanced for it. M3s just don't have the same stats compared to ships as real life planes have to ships. Eg ww2 planes carried just a single bomb or torpedo, could oneshot a carrier with it, and were almost ten times faster than ships, but at the same time they had limited range and it would take like a whole day to refuel and rearm them after use. While in X fighters don't really need carriers for refueling or rearming, but neither are they overpoweredly fast or deadly. They kinda just blend in with other ships, while irl aircraft is a VASTLY DIFFERENT thing.

This makes m3s play more like cavalry, which engages alongside with the main forces and uses speed for flanking, but there is no reason to just throw them at the enemy before the battle even started (unless there is an unescorted capital by itself or something). While IRL strike craft doesn't fight with the main forces, they indeed do attack while the fleets are way out of range. Either you have a carrier battle throwing planes at each other, or they run out of planes/daylight/weather, so they switch to surface action, and these are two different games.

Ideally id prefer m6s play the cavalry role, it makes sense that they are just faster ships, and that would avoid silly fighter behavior, while fighters rebalanced to be much faster, with strike variants carrying a single rocket or maybe two. Of course that would be a lot to rebalance the entire game, but just keeping in mind that x3 are cavalry, not strike craft, is helpful to me at least. Maybe adding one fast m2 per faction with a missile, while keeping the rest unhanged, could be an interesting proof of concept thing?
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

There is nothing that Forces the player to use their carrier fighters to extend the Carrier's power at long range.

You control that by engaging the Carrier at the range you want to. If you want to have a point blank brawl, you just move your carrier closer to the enemy before ordering it to attack. It's fighters will not launch at extreme range unless you order the carrier to attack at extreme range.

What's been done for Renegades, is to Allow fighters to fight at extreme range. You couldn't do it before. There are plenty of times where you may want to use a carrier's fighters at long range, other than a huge blob fight with other capitals. The fast mobility of a long range fighter group allows for choices.. flexibility. Why put artificial restrictions on yourself.
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VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

Hairless-Ape wrote: Thu, 25. Jul 24, 20:57 Why put artificial restrictions on yourself.
It depends on the play style. In my case i prefer to form a striking group and sand it to it's fate. As my run now, i have total war and huge battle front across many systems (which is the hole point of mayhem mod series, is it not?). Many times i had two or three battles at once and could attend to only one. I had to completely forgo carriers because of it, as they kept wasting fighters aimlessly most of the time. Carries became useless now, honestly, especially in OSS, where fighters can't do a thing to m7 and larger. And because fleet carriers have default priority to attack the same category target, for m1 all fighters attack carrier target = rush to die at m1\m2 teeth instead of hunting down other fighters. The same thing with M7 carriers, you can change priorities but you can't have m2 hunt down other capitals and m1 clear out fighters at the same time in the same pack. Idk maybe i miss something out on this regard, There are no manuals how to set them up to behave differently. :D

Also now damaged enough figters can't make to the carrier to dock and repair as their speed dropped and carrier is to fancy to wait for them. I had instance when lone fighter spend hours trying to catch up.
Also i believe all m7+ carriers should get long range lasers. Most of M7 carriers can engage at 6k range max. In system big battles it's the main reason they die needlessly.

Missiles is another point of irritation. They need complete rework. You can't adjust loadout in any way on a ship creation even with templates. Doing "Global Loadout" bugs the game out as all ships start to grab missiles on dock. My fleet of traders with missiles. My suppliers fill fighters with missiles. Free missiles are bugged and not thought out. I had to forgo them all.
In the past Template system managed missile supply well enough. You build template ship and suppliers staffed it with what is needed. Now it's a mess.

What could be done is to revert it back and rebalance missiles. Make them heavier (or nerf the cargobays of ships as they are no longer relevant with fixed lasers and shields) and much more expensive but more damaging. Right now they do no damage compared to lasers.
With missile limit per target in mind:
Make T1 missile on hit damage 100k-200k. It is enough to take out glasscanoon fighter and strip the shield of tanky one. Speed of 1k+ to actually catch the target. It will also make a need for m8 with chaff to protect fighters. Heavy enough to hold 1-2 per fighter or 10-15 per m6.
Make T2 missile on hit Damage 250k-500k. The same but for m6 targets. Speed 500+. Those targets can defend themselves now with chaff. Heavy enough to hold 2-4 of them per m6 ship.
Make T3 missile on hit Damage 1kk-2kk. The same but for m7 targets. Speed 300+. Heavy enough to hold 1-2 of them per ship. So if you want to take out M7 fast, you staff your fleet with a couple of m6s.
M7M Torpedo should hit 4kk+ but be intercepted by m8 turret. Or something lile that. To make m7m a bane of bigg capital ships.
Obviously restrictions to what target to fire at should be made. Idk, vanilla litcube had those scripts.

Is it Renegade\Zero Hour issue with pirates, that they never bother my traders flying all over the map? As i remember from vanilla mayhem they were early game trouble makers and you had to spend resources to hunt them down of face losses. Now they are just background noise. I had swarms of pirates chilling in my systems not even bothering my juicy fully staffed with cargo agents. From time to time they would go for miner. But mostly they just pass by to other faction systems.
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

Manage your fleets and you can easily do anything you want without options being forcefully removed for you by the developer. I understand your desire to avoid managing large fleet battles personally. I just don't share that opinion. Any large engagement should require your attention and moving your carrier groups into a desired position before giving the attack order isn't difficult - at all. If you are looking for something that will stay with the fleet, and will be effective in shooting fighters then use M6's; they are more survivable and can be far better at killing fighters if you use Flak. You have to ask yourself why you are using Fighters at all, if you are performing large scale capital ship brawls at point blank range.

I'm happy that damaged fighters can't make it back to the carrier if the carrier is moving away. You can call this a flaw, or you can recognize that an entire battle group should not be forced by the game to slow down for one damaged fighter, allowing enemy forces to overtake and destroy the entire group. Again, more artificial controls that limit the player are not the game direction I would support. If I want my carrier to run from a large battle where I'm losing, I certainly don't want the game to Force the carrier to slow to a crawl because of one damaged fighter. If you want something else, play Zero Hour.

Regarding M7 carriers getting long range lasers, I agree. I have not attempted to 're-balance' ship weapons load-outs from Zero Hour but am considering it. I don't think their range is as low as you state though.

Regarding Missiles needing rework, I also strongly agree. For their cost, and the frustration in managing their logistics, they are entirely crap. Their damage is crap. However, I don't know what you are talking about when you say "revert it back". Nothing has been changed in Renegades for missiles from what it was in Zero Hour. I use a TM class ship with a transporter assigned to a fleet for automatic missile resupply and it seems to work, but I set the resupply values per-ship. It's very annoying to have to do that, but it works. I've not tried any global resupply as that makes no sense to me.. I've no idea how that would even work. I also miss the template system and wish it had never been removed in Zero Hour. I am considering putting it back in. I also strongly agree there is little incentive to use missiles given their terrible performance vs the frustrating manual effort and cost of using them. Again, part of a major re-balance that I've been avoiding.

Regarding Pirates not bothering Traders, you may have a point. For Zero hour, all pirate fighters were assigned to carry a Triplex Scanner. This extended their scan range in a HUGE and completely unrealistic way for a fighter. Massive radar arrays, in real life, can't be fitted on lowly little fighters. They take a ton of power and space and require a larger platform. For Renegades, fighters no longer carry Triplex scanners, whereas large ships default to use them. What this means for the average pirate, is that they can no longer see long range and so there's less chance for them to see your traders. To compensate for this, I increased the % chance that if/when they see a player ship, they will actually attack. I also compensated by making them scan from more locations in a system before moving onto another system. To your point, I may need to compensate more, but I still strongly believe that pirate fighters should not be able to carry massive radar platforms like the Triplex scanner.


Overall, I don't know if/when I may attempt to do a large overhaul of templates, weapons and missiles. It's a huge can of worms and most people have extreme opinions regarding load-outs. So even if I do a perfect job at it, there will be plenty of people who don't like it. That said, I think the term "small changes ellie" is probably more appropriate. If I do something, it won't be a major rework, but perhaps just a series of small steps to see how it works. Again, still thinking on it but much will depend on whether Renegades as a whole has positive feedback.
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Negmek
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Negmek »

Hairless-Ape wrote: Thu, 25. Jul 24, 20:57 Why put artificial restrictions on yourself.
I am not talking about artificial restrictions. If you have half of your fleets DPS in fighters, then splitting them off and engaging a blobbed fleet of the same DPS will get both of your separate groups overmatched and defeated in detail. Whether you want to do that or not, is a separate question. But for me the only reason to split them off is when there is some small group of helpless ships that can be easily chased down and killed. Which happens A LOT given the fact that the fleet scripts don't care about formations or responding to threats.

This is the reason why fighters in this game are not strike craft: they are dps dealing shooty-shooty things, not strike craft.
You control that by engaging the Carrier at the range you want to.
As a matter of fact i don't, actually i just assign them to a wing instead. Well, if i am personally in combat, but of course i am.
VoidSoul
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by VoidSoul »

Hairless-Ape wrote: Fri, 26. Jul 24, 17:47 Manage your fleets and you can easily do anything you want without options being forcefully removed for you by the developer. I understand your desire to avoid managing large fleet battles personally. I just don't share that opinion. Any large engagement should require your attention and moving your carrier groups into a desired position before giving the attack order isn't difficult - at all. If you are looking for something that will stay with the fleet, and will be effective in shooting fighters then use M6's; they are more survivable and can be far better at killing fighters if you use Flak. You have to ask yourself why you are using Fighters at all, if you are performing large scale capital ship brawls at point blank range.
It is not that I do not desire to manage fleets, the intensity of action sometimes forbids it. It's not the same.
Now i just remove carriers from my fleets and that solves the problem. Carriers main worth was in rapid repair and maintenance reduction anyway, so the need for them is lost completely in my case.
Hairless-Ape wrote: Fri, 26. Jul 24, 17:47 I don't think their range is as low as you state though.
Well, check stats of their lasers then. :D
Hairless-Ape wrote: Fri, 26. Jul 24, 17:47 However, I don't know what you are talking about when you say "revert it back"
"To remove free missiles" is what i mean.
Hairless-Ape wrote: Fri, 26. Jul 24, 17:47 I've not tried any global resupply as that makes no sense to me.. I've no idea how that would even work.
Well, it means i tested it out, Global missile limit bugs every ship, that does not support set missiles and has been build with said limits in effect. And there is no way to remove those limits from the ships, as they lack interface option to modify. Actually I did not test if you can fire them... this could be a funny exploit if you can. Need to test. 8)

To mention, i did use global limit in vanilla mayhem and did not notice such behavior.. idk
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Hairless-Ape
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Re: [Mayhem 3] Renegades 3.0

Post by Hairless-Ape »

Negmak,
I was not addressing you. Yes, I agree with your points completely. If you're making an argument then I don't understand what it is.

VoidSoul,
Removing Carriers from your fleets seems appropriate given your play-style. You could still include a carrier for fleet repair though as they repair nearby ships when not in battle. Sorry you don't like having the ability to extend your fighter range from your carriers, but I like it better this way. You could make a change in your own code if it bothered you enough. That's what I did for years while Hector was making Zero Hour. I always customized his releases. Do the same :)

Regarding missiles, again, I think we are in agreement about how screwed up it is. It's been this way for a long long time.
I'm not sure what you mean by "remove free missiles". Would you want a newly constructed M7M to come with no missiles at all? No default load-out? That wouldn't seem good. Or are you saying the player MUST create a template with missiles and that this is the only way to get the correct ship built? I'm not sure what you want or exactly what you can't do. Remember, Hector created this stuff, so I'm not up on it all, so you'll have to keep it specific or I may not understand what exactly you want it to do.
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