Russia-Ukraine War

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Observe
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe »

fiksal wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 03:54Do you still support that list that I posted above? Do you believe Trump's administration will do any of those points? You did before, do you still?
Can you find a link to the list we discussed? I tried searching, but this is a looong thread.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by clakclak »

Observe wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 20:17
Chips wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 19:36Trump, et al. seem to assume that this wouldn't have happened if only Ukraine hadn't tried to join NATO. The available evidence at our disposal completely contradicts this though.
Fair enough. How then, do you see this unfolding now that Trump is seeking to normalize relations with Russia? For me, the main thing right now, is to stop the carnage.

Considering that Ukraine is losing (already lost over 20% of their land) and unlikely to obtain much further support from the US, and with Europe seeming unable to adequately step up to the plate, realistically, how do we achieve a ceasefire?
I see a bit of an issue here, considering that currently it is Russia and Ukraine fighting a war with one another, with America and Europe being on the sidelines. However, if you do not invite Ukraine to the peace talks and instead hold peace talks with only one side of the war, than there is no chance of stopping the war. What will happen instead is that Ukraine will fight an increasingly uphill battle, but it is still a very large country with a non insignificant population. So if Russia manages to beat the Ukrainian army eventually, Russia will be set loose on the civilian population and continue slaughter them like they did in Bucha. Meanwhile Ukrainian resistance cells, supported by whatever European countries willing to support them, will wage a guerilla war in the occupied regions. The dying will continue, but we will see a shift. Currently most deaths are military deaths, in an occupied Ukraine most deaths would be among the civilian population, due to Russian war crimes, retaliatory action and quite frankly the wave of crime, illness and supply shortages that allways follow from a situation like this.

If Trump wanted peace, Ukraine would have a seat at the peace conference. That Ukraine doesn't indicates that he does not want peace, but a Ukrainian surrender.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by burger1 »

Looks like US might be set to restore normal diplomatic ties with Russia. Time for countries to check their MAD plans against Russia and the US.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Chips »

Observe wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 20:17
Chips wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 19:36Trump, et al. seem to assume that this wouldn't have happened if only Ukraine hadn't tried to join NATO. The available evidence at our disposal completely contradicts this though.
Fair enough. How then, do you see this unfolding now that Trump is seeking to normalize relations with Russia? For me, the main thing right now, is to stop the carnage.

Considering that Ukraine is losing (already lost over 20% of their land) and unlikely to obtain much further support from the US, and with Europe seeming unable to adequately step up to the plate, realistically, how do we achieve a ceasefire?
I don't know - but I can tell you what you *don't* do...

You don't leave your supposed ally high and dry while you go and discuss a "deal" with the 80+ year enemy state over "what's beneficial for yourself" at the cost of your ally, rather than acting in the best interests of your ally.

You certainly don't exclude the ally, or worse, then repeat the 80+ year enemy state's propaganda against Ukraine's Government and people.

I believe the USA and Russia are not negotiating Ukraine's peace at all - as said by Russia itself. USA is using the Ukraine's plight and Russia's desires as a means of obtaining concessions and "deals" that benefit the US, at Ukraine's expense.

It's beyond repugnant.

Trump has already said Ukraine should be paying half a trillion in rare earth metals for the 100 billion bill. Do you think for *one second* he gives a single "humanitarian" f about Ukraine when he makes statements like that?

p.s. Remember "Bucha"? Why do you think the "carnage" stops if Ukraine gives up? Those civilians did nothing to Russia, yet they massacred civilians by their hundreds. And that's in *one* location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

You don't even have to start looking hard... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by burger1 »

Don't forget the rape/torture camps in Russia where Ukrainian civilians are being held.

Russia killed it's own wounded soldiers, executed families and raped/kidnapped thousands of Ukrainian men, women and children (they made videos of it). This is what will happen to the civilians in unoccupied territories if Ukraine loses. The war is pretty black and white in terms of who is the bad guy.

US and Russia restore diplomatic relations, Putin refused peace deal. Trump previously stated he would arm Ukraine to the teeth if Putin rejected his peace proposal. This is at least the second peace proposal from the US Putin has rejected.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-russia ... hatgpt.com
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal »

Observe wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 20:44
fiksal wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 03:54Do you still support that list that I posted above? Do you believe Trump's administration will do any of those points? You did before, do you still?
Can you find a link to the list we discussed? I tried searching, but this is a looong thread.
Yep

I am referencing my summary from a post few posts up, based on a chat you and I had awhile back:
fiksal wrote: Tue, 18. Feb 25, 13:06 Observe, do you recall how awhile back, you thought Russia should pay for restoration of Ukraine,
that Ukraine should be allowed to apply for EU,
you have agreed that some kind of security guarantees needed,
that Putin's arrest warrant should stay,
and sanctions too?
Our conversation on that is somewhere more in the past
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by felter »

(Incoming controversial logic)

As far as I see it, Trumps recent actions and words show us that America is now 100% allied with Russia in all aspects, there should be little doubt about this. NATO needs to expel America as they cannot afford to have an ally of their greatest enemy have access to all confidential information on what NATO is up to, this is the highest security risk that NATO has ever experienced since it was formed all those years ago. Europe also needs to take immediate action all America military needs to be removed from Europe as we cannot allow our enemy to have encampments on this side of our borders, it is also a massive security risk to allow them to stay in Europe. Canada and Mexico need to boost their military defence along all their borders with America. NATO countries outside of Europe should be able to help Canada with this. Europe now needs to act with all haste with Ukraine with troops and equipment on the ground in Ukraine, as Russia needs to be removed from Ukraine ASAP before America has a chance to help Russia with both equipment and troops in Ukraine. The rest of the world needs to pick their side and prepare for war.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Chips »

It's not controversial logic... it's just conspiracy empowered nonsense. It's not even worth engaging with a response. However - one point. The only non European NATO countries are Canada and USA; clue is in the name "North Atlantic...".
One other point - Trump piled out insults to North Korea, then next was shaking hands with the guy and being friendly. Trump thinks he's some skilled negotiator and tactical master. He's an idiot. Have to wait and see what really comes out of this.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by felter »

The evidence speaks for itself.
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Chips
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Chips »

The evidence does indeed speak for itself.
felter wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 03:21 America is now 100% allied with Russia in all aspects
There is no evidence that this is true. Hence, the evidence does indeed speak for itself.

But just to clarify - you are saying we should "kick USA out of NATO as they're an enemy..." - so lets look at your statement, based on the fact you think America (?!) is an enemy of us all suddenly.

Who else has threatened the USA leaving NATO? Trump. Who else would benefit the most from the US leaving NATO? Russia. Would Russia like to see the US out of NATO as well? Of course they would... it disproportionally weakens the alliance and leaves Europe in a position whereby (without big daddy) they may end up in a war (whereas, with big daddy, they're not likely to end up in a war).

So, to recap... your views on US participation in NATO aligns with Trump and Putin. Not *quite* sure that's where you were heading, but it's an actual outcome...
Last edited by Chips on Thu, 20. Feb 25, 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe »

fiksal wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 22:49I am referencing my summary from a post few posts up, based on a chat you and I had awhile back
I am at a loss trying to second-guess how this all will turn out. It appears that Trump is looking at Ukraine and Europe as being at fault for the war. Based on that sentiment, it appears that:

- There will be no NATO for Ukraine
- EU membership will be permitted
- The cost of reconstruction will go to whoever ends up owning the occupied regions
- Ukraine will have to pay for the damage done on whatever land they keep
- Foreign security troops on the ground in Ukraine will not be permitted or will be limited
- Putin arrest warrant removed
- Sanctions removed
- Negotiations will include removing NATO membership from Finland and Sweden.

What does Putin give up? The rest of Ukraine that he hasn't taken yet.

In other words, Ukraine must surrender and accept their fate. Of course, the whole picture could flip 180 from one hour to the next.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by clakclak »

According to a MEP from Finland, Donald Trump has given the EU an ultimatum. It has three weeks to sign off on Ukraine’s surrender. If the EU refuses America is withdrawing its troops from the continent.

Source: https://www.newsweek.com/trump-europe-t ... al-2033823
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie »

Nice - finally all those US troops can help their country @home :)
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe »

clakclak wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 21:24 According to a MEP from Finland, Donald Trump has given the EU an ultimatum. It has three weeks to sign off on Ukraine’s surrender. If the EU refuses America is withdrawing its troops from the continent.
That would make sense with cost reduction efforts. Probably the US could save 20-30 billion dollars annually. On the other hand, perhaps Trump could be convinced to leave them there, if Europe is willing to pay for them.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by jlehtone »

clakclak wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 21:24 According to a MEP from Finland, Donald Trump has given the EU an ultimatum. It has three weeks to sign off on Ukraine’s surrender.
That MEP claims to have heard that from "multiple sources". Prime minister of Finland denied today hearing anything like that from anywhere and puts MEP's talk into speculation category.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal »

never make a deal or trust a con man
Observe wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 19:43
In other words, Ukraine must surrender and accept their fate. Of course, the whole picture could flip 180 from one hour to the next.
so unconditional surrender then?

is that what you support too now as a voter?

Putin doesn't even give up an option to take the rest of the Ukraine

it'll be interesting to see if US thinks kidnapping children is okay

oh wait, it already does
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe »

fiksal wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 23:08so unconditional surrender then? Is that what you support too now as a voter? Putin doesn't even give up an option to take the rest of the Ukraine
My position has always been clear that I want the bloodshed to cease. If Trump helps bring that about, then more power to him. The sooner there is a ceasefire, the more land Ukraine will have remaining and the more surviving soldiers there will be to tell the tale.

Obviously, Putin cannot continue taking more Ukraine land and the world must find some way to prevent such things happening in the future. Given human nature though, the prospects for that are dim.
Last edited by Observe on Thu, 20. Feb 25, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by clakclak »

jlehtone wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 22:30
clakclak wrote: Thu, 20. Feb 25, 21:24 According to a MEP from Finland, Donald Trump has given the EU an ultimatum. It has three weeks to sign off on Ukraine’s surrender.
That MEP claims to have heard that from "multiple sources". Prime minister of Finland denied today hearing anything like that from anywhere and puts MEP's talk into speculation category.

That is good. Happy to hear it.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by burger1 »

US removal from Europe might be a good thing at this point. Uk and France can increase their production and distribution of strategic nuclear weapons if they haven't already. Change their use to include civilian targets vs just military. Most of Russias, US and other countries populations are concentrated in areas. Moscow and Saint Petersburg hold most of the Russian population. There's already multiple mutual assured destruction plans in place that will either destroy or severely cripple the world. Don't even need to leave a countries borders to do it. Hopefully Ukraine has one and is ready to use it.

Can also facilitate US bases being removed from other countries and countries closing their ports, airfields and bases to the US.

NATO has already planned for US to stop supporting Ukraine and even withdrawing from NATO which is where the US is heading to. US already stopped support for Ukraine once. US is Russia these days.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by notaterran »

clakclak wrote: Wed, 19. Feb 25, 21:48So if Russia manages to beat the Ukrainian army eventually, Russia will be set loose on the civilian population and continue slaughter them like they did in Bucha. Meanwhile Ukrainian resistance cells, supported by whatever European countries willing to support them, will wage a guerilla war in the occupied regions. The dying will continue, but we will see a shift. Currently most deaths are military deaths, in an occupied Ukraine most deaths would be among the civilian population, due to Russian war crimes, retaliatory action and quite frankly the wave of crime, illness and supply shortages that allways follow from a situation like this.
If Ukrainians are not willing to surrender, perhaps Vietnam might provide a historical example. The Vietnamese took horrendous civilian casualties and yet, they never surrendered. Russia has already killed plenty of civilians. If many Ukrainians are willing to fight to the end, then Russia's problems are just beginning. Look what happened to the U.S. Army in Vietnam. If enough Ukrainians make the decision that they'd rather die before being under the Russian boot, Ukraine might just become hell for Russia.
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