Russia-Ukraine War

[notaterran]

Looks like US might be set to restore normal diplomatic ties with Russia. Time for countries to check their MAD plans against Russia and the US.

Time for Europe to prepare for war.

[Observe]

Time for Europe to prepare for war.

Who is Europe? The EU is not unanimous on what to do about Russia. NATO remains toothless as long as Russia doesn't attack a member State. That means, it would be up to some new European coalition, which could take forever to assemble.

[burger1]

Time for Europe to prepare for war.

Who is Europe? The EU is not unanimous on what to do about Russia. NATO remains toothless as long as Russia doesn't attack a member State. That means, it would be up to some new European coalition, which could take forever to assemble.

Russia has attacked other countries in NATO. Article 5 can be invoked. Russia has fired missiles at UK military planes, claimed parts of Canada, Poland and other NATO countries have been hit by missiles and drones, Russias crashed US spy drones, cables been cut, NATO citizens killed by Russia, assassinations attempted, sabotage, etc..............

EU does have a military and is in North America, South America, Europe, and likely other continents.

The only EU countries that are pro Russia are Slovakia and Hungary. Countries outside the EU like Turkey (largest military), UK, Australia, Canada and other countries support Ukraine.

[jlehtone]

so unconditional surrender then? Is that what you support too now as a voter? Putin doesn't even give up an option to take the rest of the Ukraine

My position has always been clear that I want the bloodshed to cease. If Trump helps bring that about, then more power to him. The sooner there is a ceasefire, the more land Ukraine will have remaining and the more surviving soldiers there will be to tell the tale.

Obviously, Putin cannot continue taking more Ukraine land and the world must find some way to prevent such things happening in the future. Given human nature though, the prospects for that are dim.

Did you just admit that prospects for the bloodshed to cease are dim if Trump now forces Ukraine to surrender?

[Chips]

Who is Europe? The EU is not unanimous on what to do about Russia. NATO remains toothless as long as Russia doesn't attack a member State. That means, it would be up to some new European coalition, which could take forever to assemble.

Hang on, I thought NATO on Russia's door was an intolerable thing that'd inevitably cause a war, and it'd be NATO's fault.

Now they're toothless unless Russia attacks a NATO state.

Seems a bit contradictory - either Russia is FoS about the NATO "threat", or...

EU does have a military and is in North America, South America, Europe, and likely other continents.

No - EU member states have militaries. The EU, as an entity, does not. It's a very important distinction. There is, within the Treaty on European Union article 42(7) a Mutual Defence Clause.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs ... ses_en.pdf

Maybe that's what you're thinking of, but there is absolutely no *EU* military.

Russia has attacked other countries in NATO. Article 5 can be invoked. Russia has fired missiles at UK military planes, claimed parts of Canada, Poland and other NATO countries have been hit by missiles and drones, Russias crashed US spy drones, cables been cut, NATO citizens killed by Russia, assassinations attempted, sabotage

As the missiles failed to hit (against the plane), they're not acts of armed aggression. The crashing of missiles/drones is not likely considered armed aggression. It's upon the member state to request, and up to the council to decide, whether something has reached the limit(s) (as far as I understand it) with regards to what constitutes invoking Article 5.

Fantasy, in other words, does not meet that criteria. "Because I said so" also falls short. Evidently the threshold has not been reached to date.

[Chips]

Uk and France can increase their production and distribution of strategic nuclear weapons if they haven't already. Change their use to include civilian targets vs just military. Most of Russias, US and other countries populations are concentrated in areas. Moscow and Saint Petersburg hold most of the Russian population. There's already multiple mutual assured destruction plans in place that will either destroy or severely cripple the world. Don't even need to leave a countries borders to do it. Hopefully Ukraine has one and is ready to use it.

and

Looks like US might be set to restore normal diplomatic ties with Russia. Time for countries to check their MAD plans against Russia and the US.

Please, just stop talking...


Being "angry" and lashing out like a child with hyperbole, doesn't excuse making insane statements. Just. Stop.

[notaterran]

Time for Europe to prepare for war.

Who is Europe? The EU is not unanimous on what to do about Russia.

Europe doesn't have to be united. If the UK, France, Poland etc. would increase their ammo production then Russia would be contained in Ukraine until Russia ran out of steam (see the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan). I'm using "contained" very deliberately; look what happened in Syria, Russia couldn't help Assad. Finland, Sweden and the Netherlands are not exactly pro-Russia either so, if enough European countries would produce more ammo then Russia would lose.

[burger1]

EU looking to increase it's nuclear arsenal independent of the US.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe- ... rich-merz/

US threatening to cut off Ukraine's Starlink access if it doesn't sign over minerals rights.

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/21/us-coul ... urces.html

During the time of the USSR and the cold war the only thing that kept the peace was MAD. If you lived back then you would get it. It's also one of the reasons the US participated in the arms race to survive. Things were different back then but the dangers change and some other dangers still persist. People seem to have forgotten the lessons learned and have regressed. Need another 1980s/1990s era.

[mr.WHO]

EU looking to increase it's nuclear arsenal independent of the US.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe- ... rich-merz/

There was a poll last week here in Poland where 52% people said we should start nuclear program.
If US abandon Ukraine and Europe, this will be a necessity.

Jokes aside, we (Poland) could probably develop and build it, but we have no place to test it.
The only possible place would be underwater test in Baltic, but that poor sea already has two World Wars worth of munition and chemicals dumped to it

[clakclak]

EU looking to increase it's nuclear arsenal independent of the US.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe- ... rich-merz/

There was a poll last week here in Poland where 52% people said we should start nuclear program.
If US abandon Ukraine and Europe, this will be a necessity.

Jokes aside, we (Poland) could probably develop and build it, but we have no place to test it.
The only possible place would be underwater test in Baltic, but that poor sea already has two World Wars worth of munition and chemicals dumped to it

The likely future chancellor of Germany also said this week that Germany needs to rethink its nuclear arms policy. Currently we have a nuclear sharing policy with America, but that seems less than ideal in current times. That being said France has been looking for partners for its nuclear program for some time now as it is cost intensive. By joining them countries like Poland and Germany could avoid the testing phase as they already have working nukes and delivery systems.

[mr.WHO]

That being said France has been looking for partners for its nuclear program for some time now as it is cost intensive. By joining them countries like Poland and Germany could avoid the testing phase as they already have working nukes and delivery systems.

In normal circumstances that would be the easiest solution, but the problem is that in the end, you never know, if France would be willing to go to nuclear war for Warsaw or Berlin.
To be honest, even now, the same apply to US and UK - in the end nobody is sure, if they would response equally if Russia would nuke a minor city in EU.

In the end, true nuclear deterrence only works, if you have full control over big red button.

[Chips]

Is tomorrow Germany elections? Surprised, given (although eclipsed by) Trump's antics, that we're not hearing more interest in Germany in the media - or maybe I'm just not reading wide enough.

Worth listening to the former MI6 boss talking on news night about the points around all this (Trump, Putin, Ukraine, Europe).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FocQITpJnaQ&t=615s

[clakclak]

America threatens to turn off Star Link if Ukraine does not hand over its natural resources. America is now out here straight up extorting Ukraine.

[chew-ie]

Ukraine military is aware of the risks of having a foreign business as a critical part of their warfare infrastructure: https://en.defence-ua.com/news/are_ukra ... 13602.html

[fiksal]

That's good to hear.


Threats and extortion are natural languages of the Republican party or American Conservatives in general

[Observe]

Threats and extortion are natural languages of the Republican party or American Conservatives in general

Being one of the most (if not the most) corrupt countries in Europe, Ukraine is very well versed in the art of 'threats and extortion'. If this sort of thing is what is required to stop the fighting, so be it.

[EGO_Aut]

In the game Civilization, as soon as nuclear weapons were built, in diplomacy there was the additional sentence "Our words are backed up by nuclear weapons".
Unfortunately, without it you are no longer taken seriously and are an easy victim.

Ukraine has to hold new elections; Zelensky will then know at the latest whether the people still want war.

[ExE22]

Threats and extortion are natural languages of the Republican party or American Conservatives in general

Being one of the most (if not the most) corrupt countries in Europe, Ukraine is very well versed in the art of 'threats and extortion'. If this sort of thing is what is required to stop the fighting, so be it.

This is not to stop the fighting though, no confirmed details are available yet of whatever "deal" the U.S. and Russia are currently cooking up for that. These threats are purely in relation to the mineral deal as pressure to force Ukraine to sign it, no point trying to pretty it up with any nobler motives like "peace" (leaving alone the idea of considering economic coercion of the invaded party as an acceptable means of stopping the fighting)

[Observe]

This is not to stop the fighting though, no confirmed details are available yet of whatever "deal" the U.S. and Russia are currently cooking up for that. These threats are purely in relation to the mineral deal as pressure to force Ukraine to sign it, no point trying to pretty it up with any nobler motives like "peace" (leaving alone the idea of considering economic coercion of the invaded party as an acceptable means of stopping the fighting)

I'm looking for a silver lining in this dark cloud 'deal' that has been presented.

If the US owns 50% of Ukraine's mineral resources, some of which is in Russian occupied territory, it could have a big impact on preventing further Russian incursion and perhaps even be leverage for Russia to relinquish some of the land that the US would then have an interest in. Also, Ukraine would benefit from US knowhow and financing to help build the infrastructure necessary for mining and processing those resources.

It could be a win-win for everyone concerned. Possibly, there wouldn't even be need for foreign security forces, because the mere presence of US interests might be enough to cause Russia to have second thoughts about further invasion.

Admittedly, this may all be a bit far-fetched. On the other hand, it may be the master stroke needed to end the war. Some people are saying that such a deal would be immoral. Well, there is nothing particularly moral about war to begin with. It becomes a case of the end justifies the means.

[EDIT] Zelensky said if Trump were to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin before meeting with him, “There would be disbelief at the United States. … It would be bad for U.S. society.”

Zelenskyy needs to stop trying to pressure the US with such rhetoric. The US is getting sick and tired of hearing Zelenskyy talk about what is good or bad for us. We've been hearing that unless we support Ukraine in the manner that Zelenskyy wishes, it will be bad for us. He needs to switch gears somehow, because Trump is not buying his BS.

[Alan Phipps]

"Zelenskyy needs to stop trying to pressure the US with such rhetoric. The US is getting sick and tired of hearing Zelenskyy talk about what is good or bad for us. We've been hearing that unless we support Ukraine in the manner that Zelenskyy wishes, it will be bad for us. He needs to switch gears somehow, because Trump is not buying his BS."

Unfortunately because of mutual suspicion of intentions (and to meet differing internal needs), I think you could freely interchange US/Trump and Ukraine/Zelenskyy in those sentences and still mostly be correct - in my personal opinion.

Naturally there *must* be compromises from all involved in order to reach some sort of settlement, but I don't think that even Trump can promise any detail of Ukraine's compromises to Russia.