Russia-Ukraine War

[ExE22]

And then there's the other side of the coin


White House seeks plan for possible Russia sanctions relief, sources say

[clakclak]

And then there's the other side of the coin


White House seeks plan for possible Russia sanctions relief, sources say

Give it another 12 months and America is going to start supplying Russia with arms directly to make up for the loss of revenue from the European market.

[fiksal]

at which point are they all traitors

[Observe]

Zelenskyy post on X.

None of us wants an endless war. Ukraine is ready to come to the negotiating table as soon as possible to bring lasting peace closer. Nobody wants peace more than Ukrainians. My team and I stand ready to work under President Trump’s strong leadership to get a peace that lasts.

We are ready to work fast to end the war, and the first stages could be the release of prisoners and truce in the sky — ban on missiles, long-ranged drones, bombs on energy and other civilian infrastructure — and truce in the sea immediately, if Russia will do the same. Then we want to move very fast through all next stages and to work with the US to agree a strong final deal.

That's more like it.

Zelenskyy had said the end of the Ukraine war “is still very, very far away”

Zelenskyy's comment the other day, that the end of the war "is still very, very far", was a dumb thing to say, when we know that Trump wants the war to end yesterday. Let's see where things go from here.

[Vertigo 7]

Yeah, right... the guy that cheered Putin on when he invaded Ukraine 3 years ago is interested in stopping wars. The same guy that just recently threatened to invade Greenland and Panama. If you believe anything other than he only wants to build one of his crappy hotels in Moscow, as he said 10 years ago, just like he recently said he wants to build one in Gaza, you haven't been paying attention. He doesn't care how many people die so long as he gets what he wants. All he's doing is puffing out his chest so the MAGA morons think he's being mr tough guy. It's all for show to suck up to Putin.

[Chips]

That's more like it.

Zelenskyy had said the end of the Ukraine war “is still very, very far away”

Zelenskyy's comment the other day, that the end of the war "is still very, very far", was a dumb thing to say, when we know that Trump wants the war to end yesterday. Let's see where things go from here.

Yes, we're *so* lucky that Trump has what's best for Ukraine front and centre... and now Trump can start negotiations, with Zelensky safe in the knowledge that Trump *only* cares for the Ukraine's best interests.

There's no chance of it being conflicted with America's personal gain on an outcome. Indeed, the sudden strong arm "suspend all weapons and intelligence" feels like a rug pull to prevent Europe having any time to come up with their own version, which only started post-whitehouse-meeting disaster, rather than anything else.

Who knows, one commentator did point out that Trump is so unpredictable that this entire thing has been to lull Putin into letting his guard down somewhat, before Trump pulls out of negotiations as Putin's being "unreasonable"; the reason being is that Russia really doesn't have much wiggle room to escalate so it only goes back peddle while America has space to ramp up. Can but hope. But so far all we've heard is what *America* wants out of a peace deal, and that's entirely based on American gain and seemingly nothing about Ukraine. Hence why everyone is up in arms. What sort of "peace" deal is that?

Everyone else's fears are around what the future brings; if it's a "good" deal for the US and Russia, and a "bad" deal for Ukraine, then there's a significantly higher chance of it just restarting in the next 5 years to come. The only noise heard from the US has been indicating it's going to be bad for Ukraine, but we'll have to wait and see.

Of course, Trump supporters will claim all sorts blah blah. Good deal etc. But.. history?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... liban_deal

Uh huh. All feels like a little bit of history repeating... and there are numerous parallels (the Afghan govt not in the negotiations, promises not the US's to make, those promises not kept etc).

[Chips]

Oh, and the final thing to remember while thinking Trump's doing an amazing job.

The PRICE for Russia to come to the negotiating table? Nothing, so far. They've opened talks with America.

The PRICE for Ukraine to enter the negotiations for peace of *their* country being invaded by another? A mineral deal allegedly worth HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS

There's no negotiating until that mineral deal is signed remember. Ukraine has no say in anything UNTIL they sign that deal. That's a literal "buy in" to negotiations for peace.

Russia though - freebie.

Now look yourself in the mirror and claim Trump has any care for Ukraine... because being forced into a half a trillion dollar deal via withdrawal of support, before you're *allowed* to join any negotiations, while being smashed in the press for "not being serious about peace!" is just top tier trolling.
Before peace talks even start, they're net negative $350 billion ($150 billion repayment to US aid rendered). No wonder Ukraine wants assurances there's going to be safe guards, but that's been dropped to merely get to the table. As they've no choice. I mean, forced into having no choice.

[Observe]

...feels like a rug pull to prevent Europe having any time to come up with their own version, which only started post-whitehouse-meeting disaster

It is clear that the war was lost in 2023, if not before. Europe has had at least since then to come up with its own version. But now you are blaming Trump for Europe sitting on their hands all this time?

I voted for Trump for several very specific reasons. One of which, is the ending of the Ukraine-Russia war. It was pretty clear to me, that Biden/Harris would very likely have taken us into WW3. I don't care if some feathers get ruffled in the process of peace.

[chew-ie]

...feels like a rug pull to prevent Europe having any time to come up with their own version, which only started post-whitehouse-meeting disaster

It is clear that the war was lost in 2023, if not before. Europe has had at least since then to come up with its own version. But now you are blaming Trump for Europe sitting on their hands all this time?

I voted for Trump for several very specific reasons. One of which, is the ending of the Ukraine-Russia war. It was pretty clear to me, that Biden/Harris would very likely have taken us into WW3. I don't care if some feathers get ruffled in the process of peace.

It isn't that simple. The US was (notice the past tense) always considered an ally. Last friday finally kicked the last sleeping politician in europe awake. Beforehand the US always stayed active in their old role which they started on their own - playing world police, having their military stationed everywhere, having their dollars everywhere. Since Trump killed USAID, selling Ukraine to Russia, having no interest in the world anymore the transformation process finally started. One really shouldn't underestimate the former US lobbyists in our own political systems in europe - at least in Germany the conservative party was always cringing even when the US started bombing civilian targets with their drones via one of OUR relay stations (Ramstein).

A few rants from a US president weren't enough to kill this obedience, nutured over decades since the end of world war II. But being attacked by the US on diplomatic levels (e.g. talking to russia first about europe stuff without the europe leaders) and on the economic levels (tariffs) as well as leaving / undermining former alliances (Nato, UN) did the trick. Suffice to say that "out" is "out". The way how US gets "divorced" right now burns quite some bridges.

This process might still be reversible but it would mean kicking Trump out of the office ASAP (before mid terms). Otherwise it's getting really cold in the next few years [decades]. I'd say no one [in the US] can grasp the full extend what is happening here. People who grew up with the US being a friend getting a very cold shower right now. After all it's not only about "not being a friend" anymore - but the road leads to "being an enemy". If Vance gets his way that is. And Trump sure won't get his juicy deals he is after once the divorce is cemented.

All in all it's a huge tragedy in the making and the hangover will be almost certainly hell.

RE that "avoided" ww3 - what Trump and Putin are doing right now increased the chances for that ~a lot~. By playing the old "divide the world between superpowers" game conflicts will rise. And Russia being bolstered by Trump right now is a very dangerous thing. If peace is your goal, Trump is the wrong player to achieve that.

[Chips]

...feels like a rug pull to prevent Europe having any time to come up with their own version, which only started post-whitehouse-meeting disaster

It is clear that the war was lost in 2023, if not before. Europe has had at least since then to come up with its own version. But now you are blaming Trump for Europe sitting on their hands all this time?

No-where did it say that in my writing

To help you out - Trump's move made Europe collectively go "oh holy heck" as they'd been lazy. But now they are getting their schtick together to present an alternative option that doesn't necessarily mean Ukraine is at a US whim... Trump doubled down hard as possible. There's literally nothing else he can do to twist Ukraine's arm harder... he went full force.

Did he need to? Unlikely. Is doing so causing an immediate need to act? Yes. So why that now, and not 2 weeks ago... just because he didn't wear a suit and say "thank you" in the whitehouse? Farcical.




Of course, seeing as you care so significantly about WW3, one assumes you're :
1) Alarmed by China saying they're ready for any type of war with the US in response to tarrifs.

China has warned the US it is ready to fight "any type" of war after hitting back against President Donald Trump's mounting trade tariffs.

( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gmd3g2nzqo )

2) Alarmed by the US threatening/making overtures towards Canada, Greenland (in particular) and Panama - the latter two of which Trump has already re-iterated are going to be Americas...

He repeated his desire for an American annexation of Greenland, promised American control of the Panama Canal

( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74x4m71pmjo )

3) Alarmed that Bannon sees the EU as an enemy of his ideals, and that's also Trump's ideals, of Western civilisation - they want to destroy the EU.

To Bannon, a strengthened EU is nothing less than a risk to civilization: a body that dilutes national identity and whose border policies allow Islam to invade the West, one refugee at a time.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... on-214889/

Yes, the world war 3 risk will be averted with this one in power Not even had to mention the desire by some to dismantle NATO and how that'd "protect the world from war" as, surely, you'd accept without NATO, Russia would be rolling into Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, as well as Ukraine once again and Moldova at the least?

Or do you think without NATO Russia would suddenly relinquish Ukraine's territory back to it, safe that there's no risk to them anymore. All safe, happy world? I

I don't think anyone is against Ukraine and Russia making peace. Stop trying to make out everyone else wants endless war But, in light of what i say above, this thread is about Russia - Ukraine, and not how Trump policy is currently spreading threatening global peace risking trade wars with China, threatening Greenland/NATO ally Denmark, nor Panama. That's for a different thread, so fair enough.

Is the take home from your stance that, in the face of aggression, the weaker nation should immediately subject/give up, to prevent a potential war causing world war 3?

So that's Canada and Greenland becoming part of USA without a shot fired - because it could cause WW3? Portugal become Spain, France gets Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany gets Austria / Czech Republic and Denmark? China gets Asia in general, Brazil gets entire South America?

A world ruled by several "strong men", to avoid WW3, naturally. Is this not the extrapolation of appeasement you're seemingly supporting?

[fiksal]

I voted for Trump for several very specific reasons. One of which, is the ending of the Ukraine-Russia war. It was pretty clear to me, that Biden/Harris would very likely have taken us into WW3. I don't care if some feathers get ruffled in the process of peace.

Coincidentally I too voted for Harris to end the war, no matter who would be in the way of that. Trump likely to align with Putin and end the war with either ethnic cleansing or genocide, or a bit of both. So far Trump doesnt disappoint on that front.

[felter]

So let me see if | have got this right, a convicted conman who had already been President and in that time as the previous president he lied to the American people and the rest of the world over 34,000 times in those 4 years and when that convicted conman and liar said he would bring peace to Ukraine if you voted for him, also have to mention he was behind a violent insurrection against the American government that led to at least 6 people dying, and you actually are admitting to doing just that voting for him because he said he would bring peace, now that has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone admit to actually doing.

[burger1]

Voting for Trump to stop the war with out appeasement would be stupid. Trump already stopped aid to Ukraine even before he became president. Trump was supplying Russia with classified information. He is doing what we thought he would do. Voting for Trump is supporting genocide (in Gaza also).

US stops providing some data for himars targeting.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... um-effect/

Rumour from a few places: US is apparently talking to Ukraine opposition about replacing Zelensky. US might kill Zelensky or force a coup.

[fiksal]

Trump's "peace" is checking Putin's boxes
- stop military aid was a priority for Putin

good job, traitor Trump

[Observe]

So let me see if | have got this right, a convicted conman who had already been President and in that time as the previous president he lied to the American people and the rest of the world over 34,000 times in those 4 years and when that convicted conman and liar said he would bring peace to Ukraine if you voted for him, also have to mention he was behind a violent insurrection against the American government that led to at least 6 people dying, and you actually are admitting to doing just that voting for him because he said he would bring peace, now that has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone admit to actually doing.

You got it right and I agree with you. Unfortunately, it is not that simple. There also has to be consideration for what the alternative was. In my opinion, the consequences of a Harris presidency would have been even worse than having the lying, felon Trump. Pretty sad choices.

My hope is that we will all survive Trump and that the Democrats will be able to muster a viable candidate next time around. If Trump is able to bring us back from irresponsible spending, the Democrats can rejoice over all the money that they will be able to waste when they next hold the reins of power. Democrats spend, spend, spend and Republicans cut, cut, cut. That's how it typically goes.

[CBJ]

Democrats spend, spend, spend and Republicans cut, cut, cut. That's how it typically goes.

This is the wrong thread for this discussion, but just to point out that this is factually incorrect.

Back on topic in this thread though. We have another thread for that.

[felter]

So how do you think that peace you voted for is going, is it going like you thought it would, are you even hearing the truth on what is going on or are you getting your information from the likes of Fox News and the rest of the Trump fake media. You do know that there is an escalation happening with the UK and France along with around 18 other countries getting ready to join the fight in Ukraine, this has all come around because of Trump, and it doesn't sound like peace to me.

BBC News, yes, an actual news site.

You should bookmark this as you may need it in the near future.

[fiksal]

I do notice that Trump is following Putin, possibly toying with idea of installing a puppet president. Both Putin and Trump keep forgetting, how many people remember what Russians have done though.

Even opposition had supported Zelensky in his message to US. Neither Russia nor US can control Ukraine, you cant punch people down and expect gratitude. Defintely cant kill them to make them like you.


Times writes something for a change
https://time.com/7265176/trump-ukraine-zelensky/

Never, Never Underestimate Ukraine
by
Illia Ponomarenko

First there was Donald Trump calling Volodymyr Zelensky a “dictator.” Then there was the infamous, heated exchange at the White House on Friday, where Ukraine’s wartime leader was accused of not being grateful enough for years of U.S. support. Then there was a U.S. decision on Tuesday to pause aid, and another one on Wednesday to cut off intelligence sharing.

Now the Trump Administration is considering stripping legal status for 240,000 Ukrainians in the U.S. who fled the Russian invasion, potentially putting them on a fast track for deportation.

These are the moves of a U.S. President throwing a tantrum over Ukraine, trying to twist its arm like it’s some kind of personal colonial asset or Banana Republic. All with the expectation that Ukraine will just roll over and sign a “peace deal” with no security guarantees.

No negotiations, no discussions, no pesky Ukrainian democracy—just kiss the ring and get on with it.

Yet Trump is making the same mistake as Vladimir Putin—grossly underestimating Ukraine as a sovereign nation determined to survive. And, as history keeps showing us, that is a terrible idea.

This is where Trump and Putin, two very different men with a Ukraine problem, collide with reality. Trump, much like Putin, sees Ukraine as an inconvenience, an obstacle, something that should be grateful to even have a seat at the table. Instead, to his visible frustration on Friday, he met a leader who wouldn’t grovel. The upshot was an unprecedented public spat between two wartime allies that saw Zelensky storm out of the White House before a minerals deal could be penned.

Putin made a similar blunder when he convinced himself that Ukraine was some kind of fake country, created by Vladimir Lenin as a clerical error. He expected a leisurely parade into Kyiv and instead walked straight into a nightmare of his own making—one where demoralized “peasants” from Russian jokes turned out to be one of the world’s best warfighters with an entire society fiercely backing them.

Like Putin, Trump just doesn’t get Ukraine. His approach hasn’t weakened the Ukrainian President. If anything, it’s done the opposite. Even people who can’t stand Zelensky’s failures have given him credit for standing his ground. That’s because Trump’s approach isn’t just an insult to Zelensky but to Ukraine itself—its institution of national leadership. And if there’s one thing Ukrainians love more than anything, it’s proving arrogant world leaders wrong.

Trump doesn’t see the nation behind the name. Instead, his Administration is sending feelers out to opposition figures like Petro Poroshenko and Yulia Tymoshenko—both of whom only 6% to 10% voters say they would back. Neither has a realistic chance of leading Ukraine in free and fair elections—with Zelensky and war hero General Valeriy Zaluzhny the clear frontrunners.

If the idea is to find a more compliant Ukrainian leader, good luck with that. Putin tried the same thing with his long-time collaborator Viktor Medvedchuk, his pick for a puppet leader, before Medvedchuk was arrested on treason charges in April 2022.

That’s because—and this part is key—this war isn’t about Zelensky. It’s about the people. It’s about the 1 million men and women serving in Ukraine’s army, standing in trenches, dodging drones, evacuating the wounded, and keeping the front lines intact. It’s about the millions more who are keeping the country running, raising funds, developing new weapons, and refusing to break under relentless Russian bombardment.

History is full of examples of what happens when an army loses the will to fight—the Syrian regime’s collapse in December, the Russian front in World War I. That’s not happening here. Russia is advancing and inflicting heavy losses on Ukraine. But Ukraine is still standing because Ukrainians are still willing to pay the price for their survival. Yes, Western weapons help greatly—but weapons don’t fight wars. People do.

Which brings us back to Trump’s decision to pause military aid and intelligence sharing. It’s a terrible blow to the defenders of Ukraine.

But, again, it won’t force Ukraine to surrender any time soon or accept a peace deal without security guarantees. If there’s one thing this war has proven, it’s that Ukrainians are good at improvising when they have to. When Russian firepower became overwhelming, they introduced and mastered things like FPV drones and naval drones, which effectively revolutionized modern warfare.

Ukraine has options. Europe is still in the game. The country’s domestic weapons production is ramping up. Across Ukraine, small workshops—what some call the “shadow military-industrial complex”—are working 24/7 to keep the war effort going. Ideas on how to mitigate the damage from Trump’s siding with Putin are boiling.

As long as we the people want to keep our country we love, there is always a way forward.

[ATTACK_HAMSTER]

It is clear that the war was lost in 2023, if not before.

With the sheer volume of tanks & IFV's lost, and tactical donkeys appearing on the Russian side, it bleeding well isn't!

[notaterran]

It's too soon to know if Europeans will significantly increase their military help to Ukraine, I hope they do.