[FEEDBACK] [7.5B7+] A problem: Stations, combat balance, and faction response

[Ragnos28]

i feel like the first change, and I would imagine the easiest change, would be to have forces respond to attacks. The lone destroyer killing a defense station happens ALL THE TIME currently in my game.

I even made a beefy defense station for HoP who is losing ground to ANT and PAR.... with a couple free floating defense platforms to dry and draw enemies into the defense stations range, where the rest of the station would obliterate them. It wasn't a monstrosity, but it had a solid 13-15 or so defense platforms spread out. It got taken out by a single PAR destroyer over the course of 20-30 minutes, in Holy Vision, with zero response from HoP... HoP was constantly suiciding their fleets into ANT space while allowing PAR to take over Pontifex's Claim.

Forces responding to attacks seems like the most logical solution. Attacks against stations, or even an enemy destroyer entering the sector. A PAR destroyer shouldn't be able to enter Holy Vision and just fly around and do whatever he wants to do. He should be tracked and attacked and destroyed.

The attackers should also be "buffed", a single destroyer is not much of an invasion force.

[adeine]

The attackers should also be "buffed", a single destroyer is not much of an invasion force.

They're often not meant to be. It's stray destroyers that get distracted on the way to elsewhere and end up taking out half a sector on their lonesome.

Pirate factions with no standing army have zero response to this by the way.

[Y-llian]

The biggest issue is that NPC factions are completely unresponsive. Not only do they lack tactical and strategic capabilities, but they also fail to react to obvious threats—like seeing 1I and 3K at a gate and immediately sending their defense fleets to that sector. This seems to be part of a broader lack of situational awareness.

Agreed and related to this, is how NPC factions treat all sectors as equally important / unimportant. If the Argon lose Argon Prime, there is no concerted effort to retake such a culturally and economically significant sector. It’s like the Federation just doesn’t care that their home planet is under blockade. The same goes for any of the other factions’ home systems.

While we certainly do need NPC fleets to be more reactive to invasions, we also could do with sectors the factions will always want to control, for cultural / historical reasons e.g. Argon Prime, Earth etc. or sectors that are strategically important for energy production and raw materials.

Personally, I’d like to see the NPC factions have a sector grading system.

HQ / Home sector. This should be a sector with good workforce bonuses to help SYs and Wharfs for crew output. These sectors should be regarded as “must have”.

Core systems. Sectors bordering the HQ that’s important for raw materials and energy.

Border systems. These are the sectors for expansion, which can be unowned or owned by enemies.

One of things I like about Stellaris is that the player and NPC factions need to register claims on systems, it’d be really great if X4 had something similar. This way, we’d know which systems mean something to whom and the game would be richer for it.

Argon Prime (or any HQ) should not be taken by a few lucky destroyers who just happen to outrange station defences. Fleets should immediately descend on mass on any would be invader. You dare attack our home? Be prepared for a fight!

[Ragnos28]

The attackers should also be "buffed", a single destroyer is not much of an invasion force.

They're often not meant to be. It's stray destroyers that get distracted on the way to elsewhere and end up taking out half a sector on their lonesome.

I've seen a lot of disccusions about making stations OP, in this thread, see the "drones with torpedoes" idea, but not much about how the factions attacking forces are expected to deal with the new "Death Stars".

Pirate factions with no standing army have zero response to this by the way.

That is because pirate factions don't have governments, SCA and FAF for example, according to the diplomacy tab.

[jlehtone]

One of things I like about Stellaris is that the player and NPC factions need to register claims on systems, it’d be really great if X4 had something similar. This way, we’d know which systems mean something to whom and the game would be richer for it.

Is the "registered claim" something similar to "core province" in Europa Universalis 4? (Cores are "rightful part", so turning a province into core makes claim on it easier/useful.)

However, the EU4 has "international agreements" on who owns what. It is easier for others to agree that I rule a province, if it is "my core".
In X4 we live in wilderness. In outlaw frontier. The first sticking a flag on sector has it (until someone manages to kick the flag down.) The closest to "international agreement" are places like Heretic's End, where no NPC faction dares to be the first.

Forces responding to attacks seems like the most logical solution. Attacks against stations, or even an enemy destroyer entering the sector. A PAR destroyer shouldn't be able to enter Holy Vision and just fly around and do whatever he wants to do. He should be tracked and attacked and destroyed.

That leads to two questions:

* What are the events that activate response? Approaching station? Which stations or all of them? Entering sector? Which sectors or all of them?

* How large should the response fleet be? Someone said that each station should have their own fleet. That would be a lot. Just one "intervention" fleet? Imagine the lone ARG (R)RF chasing foes when it has to protect only sectors with ARG SY/ED/TS/Wharf. Not very rapid.

[adeine]

The attackers should also be "buffed", a single destroyer is not much of an invasion force.

They're often not meant to be. It's stray destroyers that get distracted on the way to elsewhere and end up taking out half a sector on their lonesome.

I've seen a lot of disccusions about making stations OP, in this thread, see the "drones with torpedoes" idea, but not much about how the factions attacking forces are expected to deal with the new "Death Stars".

While there's certainly room for improvement, the same way they dealt with it before? Ships flying into turret range when attacking is functionally equivalent to having turrets that outrange destroyers. Even if you changed nothing else, it'd just be how it was in earlier versions of the game.

Pirate factions with no standing army have zero response to this by the way.

That is because pirate factions don't have governments, SCA and FAF for example, according to the diplomacy tab.

Yes, exactly. So with destroyers being able to destroy any station with impunity, these factions just cease to exist. FAF never had any stations to begin with so it's a non-issue for them, but other pirate factions do.

[Ragnos28]

While there's certainly room for improvement, the same way they dealt with it before? Ships flying into turret range when attacking is functionally equivalent to having turrets that outrange destroyers. Even if you changed nothing else, it'd just be how it was in earlier versions of the game.

From what I see the issue reported is...a lone Odysseus takes out defence stations, that's bad...ok, that's a problem...so let's find a solution , how about each station summon 1 Zeus E + 32 Ares with BM + 8 Odysseus + 20 Gorgon + 20 Nemesis...that will show that lone Odysseus who's boss.

Pirate factions with no standing army have zero response to this by the way.

That is because pirate factions don't have governments, SCA and FAF for example, according to the diplomacy tab.

Yes, exactly. So with destroyers being able to destroy any station with impunity, these factions just cease to exist. FAF never had any stations to begin with so it's a non-issue for them, but other pirate factions do.

Good, I want pirate factions gone, might be fun at the beginning to take their destroyers, but after that they can space themselfs as far as I'm concern.

[adeine]

While there's certainly room for improvement, the same way they dealt with it before? Ships flying into turret range when attacking is functionally equivalent to having turrets that outrange destroyers. Even if you changed nothing else, it'd just be how it was in earlier versions of the game.

From what I see the issue reported is...a lone Odysseus takes out defence stations, that's bad...ok, that's a problem...so let's find a solution , how about each station summon 1 Zeus E + 32 Ares with BM + 8 Odysseus + 20 Gorgon + 20 Nemesis...that will show that lone Odysseus who's boss.

Yes, that is bad. No, that is not what people are saying.

Good, I want pirate factions gone, might be fun at the beginning to take their destroyers, but after that they can space themselfs as far as I'm concern.

If you personally want to play without pirate factions, you can always wipe them out yourself, mod them out of the game or use a custom start where you start at +30 with all of them. The current situation is clearly not working as intended.

[Raptor34]

They're often not meant to be. It's stray destroyers that get distracted on the way to elsewhere and end up taking out half a sector on their lonesome.

I've seen a lot of disccusions about making stations OP, in this thread, see the "drones with torpedoes" idea, but not much about how the factions attacking forces are expected to deal with the new "Death Stars".

While there's certainly room for improvement, the same way they dealt with it before? Ships flying into turret range when attacking is functionally equivalent to having turrets that outrange destroyers. Even if you changed nothing else, it'd just be how it was in earlier versions of the game.

Pirate factions with no standing army have zero response to this by the way.

That is because pirate factions don't have governments, SCA and FAF for example, according to the diplomacy tab.

Yes, exactly. So with destroyers being able to destroy any station with impunity, these factions just cease to exist. FAF never had any stations to begin with so it's a non-issue for them, but other pirate factions do.

Maybe they should rebrand to minor states instead. They are pirates, not a military.

[Ragnos28]

While there's certainly room for improvement, the same way they dealt with it before? Ships flying into turret range when attacking is functionally equivalent to having turrets that outrange destroyers. Even if you changed nothing else, it'd just be how it was in earlier versions of the game.

From what I see the issue reported is...a lone Odysseus takes out defence stations, that's bad...ok, that's a problem...so let's find a solution , how about each station summon 1 Zeus E + 32 Ares with BM + 8 Odysseus + 20 Gorgon + 20 Nemesis...that will show that lone Odysseus who's boss.

Yes, that is bad. No, that is not what people are saying.

Is not? All I see in this thread is:
a) let's make stations OP by providing absurd turrets that outrange everything
and
b) let's make stations OP by summoning fleets from their arse

the common theme is "Let's make stations OP". I'm not interested in that, so just make a poll with the proposed changes, so I can vote "NO".

[Raptor34]

Honestly Egosoft should invest into making overseer level AIs. Like why do each and every ship need to be able to do their tasks by themselves?
Frankly most if not all military ships do not need an AI for it. We shouldn't have lone destroyers just flying around for reasons. We don't need masses of fighters flying around defending empty space while your sectors are being ravaged.
Like defense stations for instance should have a maint bay and squadrons of fighters and bombers waiting in them just sitting there, and then actually respond to threats. Rather than flying around doing nothing and eating up system resources.

[Ragnos28]

Like defense stations for instance should have a maint bay and squadrons of fighters and bombers waiting in them just sitting there, and then actually respond to threats. Rather than flying around doing nothing and eating up system resources.

And if the player is the threat?
Case in point, let's say you are in a beginner fighter, you shoot a SCA Minotaur with argon "mask" near a argon defence station, the station launch its legion of fighters and bombers, all targeting you.
And with the incidents with friendly fire aggro, if they take place near a defence station, now you have to exterminate huge fleets of the faction you try to help.

[Raptor34]

Like defense stations for instance should have a maint bay and squadrons of fighters and bombers waiting in them just sitting there, and then actually respond to threats. Rather than flying around doing nothing and eating up system resources.

And if the player is the threat?
Case in point, let's say you are in a beginner fighter, you shoot a SCA Minotaur with argon "mask" near a argon defence station, the station launch its legion of fighters and bombers, all targeting you.
And with the incidents with friendly fire aggro, if they take place near a defence station, now you have to exterminate huge fleets of the faction you try to help.

For the first one is that actually an issue?
As for the second, maybe when factions can actually help themselves they won't need you to help them lmao. Also defense stations is just for acting as a central hub, like an airfield. That's just where they stage, doesn't mean they are tied to defending it only. It'll be like the old RRF, except not magically spawned.

Also I just thought of another way to deal with FF. Compensation basically. If you caused a ship to be destroyed, whether by enemy fire or by yourself, a generously timed mission is autogenerated to deliver wares to allow for the rebuilding of what you've destroyed. Though only up to a certain limit, so say you accidentally caused a destroyer to be blown up that's one thing. Caused ten is another. That way the player would still be punished but without the rep cascade failure.

[Ragnos28]

Like defense stations for instance should have a maint bay and squadrons of fighters and bombers waiting in them just sitting there, and then actually respond to threats. Rather than flying around doing nothing and eating up system resources.

And if the player is the threat?
Case in point, let's say you are in a beginner fighter, you shoot a SCA Minotaur with argon "mask" near a argon defence station, the station launch its legion of fighters and bombers, all targeting you.
And with the incidents with friendly fire aggro, if they take place near a defence station, now you have to exterminate huge fleets of the faction you try to help.

For the first one is that actually an issue?

Yes, it is. Was doing a beginner simulation clip of getting a SCA Minotaur to bail with my Nodan, near a defence station. While "masked" as the locals, the bastard made a report to local authorities, with rep loss for me, and I was thinking that I would not want to have squadrons of fighters and bombers targeting me, on top of the rep loss.

As for the second, maybe when factions can actually help themselves they won't need you to help them lmao. Also defense stations is just for acting as a central hub, like an airfield. That's just where they stage, doesn't mean they are tied to defending it only. It'll be like the old RRF, except not magically spawned.

Also I just thought of another way to deal with FF. Compensation basically. If you caused a ship to be destroyed, whether by enemy fire or by yourself, a generously timed mission is autogenerated to deliver wares to allow for the rebuilding of what you've destroyed. Though only up to a certain limit, so say you accidentally caused a destroyer to be blown up that's one thing. Caused ten is another. That way the player would still be punished but without the rep cascade failure.

All I know is that I got from +30 with the terrans to -30 because my patrols near my station on Earth, got the local forces to aggro for bogus illegal wares charges, and all went to hell.
I sort of prevent it to happen in the future, by selecting in general settings, for my military ships to also submit to the police requests, bogus or not. But if aggro near a defence station cause whole squadrons to go red, a general setting will not help.

[Y-llian]

One of things I like about Stellaris is that the player and NPC factions need to register claims on systems, it’d be really great if X4 had something similar. This way, we’d know which systems mean something to whom and the game would be richer for it.

Is the "registered claim" something similar to "core province" in Europa Universalis 4? (Cores are "rightful part", so turning a province into core makes claim on it easier/useful.)

However, the EU4 has "international agreements" on who owns what. It is easier for others to agree that I rule a province, if it is "my core".
In X4 we live in wilderness. In outlaw frontier. The first sticking a flag on sector has it (until someone manages to kick the flag down.) The closest to "international agreement" are places like Heretic's End, where no NPC faction dares to be the first.

It’s kinda similar to EU4 but there is no “legal right” or de jure system as in CK4. Factions claim systems / planets using influence, which is a sort of currency that’s earned based on empire size, diplomatic relations and military assets. You essentially “buy” claims which then become your war targets. I’m not suggesting that level of granularity but the overall concept of factions registering claims on sectors could work.

In X4 factions should only be able to claim sectors if:

1. They share a border with an enemy faction.
2. They border an unclaimed sector.
3. They’ve previously held a sector. A sort of right of previous occupation.
4. A sector is considered culturally significant / core system.

While I take your point that X4 is kinda Wild West, it’s also not. The ownership of Argon Prime, Kingdom End, Earth is well established in the game lore. Indeed, in X4 the Terrans are fanatical about protecting Earth space, going so far that only allies can trade / enter there. So while some systems may well be a situation of sticking a flag there for the first time, others have had flags there for thousands of years e.g. Earth. Argon Prime has been controlled by the survivors of the Terraformer fleet for around 500 odd years. Who knows how long the Boron have occupied Kingdom End.

I just don’t believe that it makes sense for the military, of any faction, to just happily hand over an area of space they consider home. Especially, the Terrans!

Obviously, my concept is a raw idea and the kinks need thinking through. But from a player perspective, knowing which systems matter more, and will be defended more zealously would add both nuance and challenge.

But the main point, in line with this thread discussion, is that important home systems, in particular, should definitely have reactive fleets to counter invasions.

Best
Y.