Russia-Ukraine War

[Observe]

So my country dithers and delays in providing the type of assistance that will allow Ukraine to prevail against tyranny.

Considering the billions already given, is there any realistic chance that more billions are going to make any substantive difference? Ukraine is outnumbered and outgunned on the battlefield. Russia has an industrial and human resource capability that Ukraine simply cannot match. What I am hearing in the US and Europe, is calls for a plan to end the war. Fighting to the last man and bleeding the economy of other nations, is not an acceptable plan. Neither is pushing Russia further into unholy alliances with China, South Korea, Iran and possibly South Africa, India and others an acceptable plan.

And if we fail to support them in their fight now, we will have a much more dangerous, emboldened enemy to face against on our doorsteps tomorrow.

This comes up a lot. It has been a favorite argument used by the losing side since humans began waging war against each other. We had to stop the communists in Vietnam, because if we didn't, we would all be eating with chopsticks. That argument was nonsense then and it is now with Ukraine. Some will try to compare the Ukraine situation with World War 2. There is no comparison. As much as Ukraine would love to see this conflict expand to other countries, their war is strictly a regional conflict, not a global one. Let's make sure it stays that way.

[fiksal]

And if we fail to support them in their fight now, we will have a much more dangerous, emboldened enemy to face against on our doorsteps tomorrow.

This comes up a lot. It has been a favorite argument used by the losing side since humans began waging war against each other. We had to stop the communists in Vietnam, because if we didn't, we would all be eating with chopsticks. That argument was nonsense then and it is now with Ukraine. Some will try to compare the Ukraine situation with World War 2. There is no comparison. As much as Ukraine would love to see this conflict expand to other countries, their war is strictly a regional conflict, not a global one. Let's make sure it stays that way.

That depends on the goal, no? The objectives from Russia are quite clear, you can even trace them back to 2008 if you parse through all the nonsense. Ukraine's objectives are clear too. What are US objectives in this?

If the goal to aid Ukraine and defeat Russia, take the bridge down, give Ukraine weapons that can fire into Russia, strike all the Russian bases. Do that, and you dont even need to give much aid after.

If the goal to make friends with Russia, scrap aid to Ukraine, scrap US sanctions, exit from NATO. This is the cheapest solution, and one Russia would forgive everything for.

If the goal of the US is to exit the scene regardless of what happens, then say so and leave. Let Ukraine untie its hands and bomb the heck out of all the energy pipelines. I personally think Europe should and will keep on helping until it's done. (Eastern Europe has plenty to lose, besides just democracy)


By my calculations, Democrats want almost #1, half of Republicans want almost #1, and the other jump around between #2 and #3 it seems. Situation can be fixed with more of the first two in the government. Voting and all that

I just donated $300 to the United24 defense fund.

I matched you.

[Observe]

What are US objectives in this?

Relations between Russia and the US have been tense dating back to the Cold War era at least. We had two superpowers vying for global influence, competing around the world for political and social dominance. The Cold War never really ended and Ukraine is a convenient battleground for a proxy engagement. The US objectives are to weaken Russia as much as possible, because we consider them antithetical to our interests. The other benefit to the US, is that wars represent increased government spending, which leads to job creation and productivity.

Some may argue that the US objective is to 'do the right thing', but if you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you. Nations generally only do the 'right thing', when it benefits their own security and political/social agenda. The question Biden must be asking himself, is has Russia been weakened enough to satisfy the craving for punishment, or can we possibly go for a knockout punch? The later seems increasingly unlikely and Biden is already on his own political deathbed.

[fiksal]

What are US objectives in this?

Relations between Russia and the US have been tense dating back to the Cold War era at least. We had two superpowers vying for global influence, competing around the world for political and social dominance. The Cold War never really ended and Ukraine is a convenient battleground for a proxy engagement. The US objectives are to weaken Russia as much as possible, because we consider them antithetical to our interests. The other benefit to the US, is that wars represent increased government spending, which leads to job creation and productivity.

Some may argue that the US objective is to 'do the right thing', but if you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you. Nations generally only do the 'right thing', when it benefits their own security and political/social agenda. The question Biden must be asking himself, is has Russia been weakened enough to satisfy the craving for punishment, or can we possibly go for a knockout punch? The later seems increasingly unlikely and Biden is already on his own political deathbed.

Weaking is not victory however. I could maybe argue because the cold war didnt end, that's why we find ourselves in this.

[Observe]

Weakening is not victory however. I could maybe argue because the cold war didnt end, that's why we find ourselves in this.

The cold war never ends. We are in one with China and many other countries. Israel is in a cyclic hot/cold war with it's enemies. As long as there are opposing sides seeking dominance, willing to use espionage, arms races, proxy wars, political interference and aggressive expansion there will be cold wars which periodically spill over into hot ones. Obliterating Russia, will not even come close to ending the madness that has afflicted us since evolution made us the killers we are.

[fiksal]

Weakening is not victory however. I could maybe argue because the cold war didnt end, that's why we find ourselves in this.

The cold war never ends. We are in one with China and many other countries. Israel is in a cyclic hot/cold war with it's enemies. As long as there are opposing sides seeking dominance, willing to use espionage, arms races, proxy wars, political interference and aggressive expansion there will be cold wars which periodically spill over into hot ones. Obliterating Russia, will not even come close to ending the madness that has afflicted us since evolution made us the killers we are.

Repeated wars with a country can end, exp Europe, Germany, England, France, and then Japan.

US had an opportunity to end the cold war, it didnt. US now has the opportunity to end this version of cold and hot war - will it? I guess nah?

[Warenwolf]

This comes up a lot. It has been a favorite argument used by the losing side since humans began waging war against each other. We had to stop the communists in Vietnam, because if we didn't, we would all be eating with chopsticks. That argument was nonsense then and it is now with Ukraine. Some will try to compare the Ukraine situation with World War 2. There is no comparison. As much as Ukraine would love to see this conflict expand to other countries, their war is strictly a regional conflict, not a global one. Let's make sure it stays that way.

You refuse to compare this conflict to WW2 - irony of using Chamberlain's arguments regarding Czechoslovakia vs Third Reich on Ukraine is apparently lost on you - and while this conflict indeed is nothing like WW2 it certainly has much likeness to the period PRIOR to the hostilities in Europe. Which all started with series of small and not so small regional conflicts initiated by Germany, Italia and Japan, all of which eventually escalated to a great war because democracies wanted to avoid horrors of WW1...

Then you mention Vietnam where US was the invading nation using arguments of existential threat as justification for invasion just as Putin did. But fail to understand how much that conflict curbed US appetite for further foreign military adventurism (for some time at least).

This conflict is currently a regional conflict because Kremlin got bogged down in the mud of Ukraine. Kremlin's future plans are not secret - they are not what you wish them to be but what they have been stating over and over again and how they have been acting for over 20 year now.

[Chips]

And if we fail to support them in their fight now, we will have a much more dangerous, emboldened enemy to face against on our doorsteps tomorrow.

This comes up a lot. It has been a favorite argument used by the losing side since humans began waging war against each other. We had to stop the communists in Vietnam, because if we didn't, we would all be eating with chopsticks. That argument was nonsense then and it is now with Ukraine. Some will try to compare the Ukraine situation with World War 2. There is no comparison. As much as Ukraine would love to see this conflict expand to other countries, their war is strictly a regional conflict, not a global one. Let's make sure it stays that way.

That's what happened in the lead up to WW2 though

The irony of the old saying "failing to learn from History..."

[Observe]

That's what happened in the lead up to WW2 though.

Well, if we add the numbers corresponding to the dates for the beginning of the wars, we get the number 68. WW2 started on September 1, 1939 (1+9+19+39 = 68), and Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022 (24+2+20+22 = 68). Which proves your point that both wars are the same.

[fiksal]

this is getting silly,

are we disputing Russia's goals ?
or that Russia isn't capable to accomplish its goals if you let it recover?
or that US should not care about the rest of the world and is okay to let Russia do its thing?
or arguing only to argue?

[Observe]

this is getting silly...

You are right. I apologize.

Meanwhile, Ukraine approves medical marijuana to help wounded soldiers deal with pain and trauma. Good idea, but no doubt this will infuriate Russia, who is vehemently opposed to cannabis for any reason and will see this as yet another example of Ukraine being corrupted by the evil ways of the West.

[clakclak]

this is getting silly...

You are right. I apologize.

Meanwhile, Ukraine approves medical marijuana to help wounded soldiers deal with pain and trauma. Good idea, but no doubt this will infuriate Russia, who is vehemently opposed to cannabis for any reason and will see this as yet another example of Ukraine being corrupted by the evil ways of the West.

As if that is going to make any difference at all. I doubt that even Russia's propagandists are desperate enough to try to make that argument. Then again I have watched enough Solowjow to know what he would say: "They [insert derogatory term here] are now poisoning their own soldiers. Their OWN soldiers. [Dramatic Pause]. Poisoning. The [insert reference to the Nazis here] in Kyiv have lost all hope and their soldiers know it. So they have resorted to handing them Cannabis, the same drug the [insert swear here] Americans use to keep their population in check." And so on and, bla bla bla.

[fiksal]

As if that is going to make any difference at all. I doubt that even Russia's propagandists are desperate enough to try to make that argument. Then again I have watched enough Solowjow to know what he would say: "They [insert derogatory term here] are now poisoning their own soldiers. Their OWN soldiers. [Dramatic Pause]. Poisoning. The [insert reference to the Nazis here] in Kyiv have lost all hope and their soldiers know it. So they have resorted to handing them Cannabis, the same drug the [insert swear here] Americans use to keep their population in check." And so on and, bla bla bla.

That's pretty good!

[fiksal]

lets put the question of negotiations with Russia to rest with this one.

I gave up on some people on this forum, but I'll keep reaching out to @Observe

Co-chairman of the A Just Russia party Zakhar Prilepin proposed annexing Uzbekistan and other territories of the former USSR to the Russian Federation. Ex-deputy Rasul Kusherbaev sent him and asked the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to send a note. Deputy Bobur Bekmurodov warned Prilepin about criminal liability.
...
According to the politician, to resolve issues of demography and conflicts with migrants, “we need to have more children.” “The more Russians there are, the fewer problems with newcomers behaving incorrectly,” he said.
...
Zakhar Prilepin added that he considers it necessary to annex the countries “where Gastarbeiter come from.”
...
...will allow us to say at any time: “Since two million of your citizens are on our territory, we claim your territory.” Because the majority of you are here, they have already even voted for it.” Well, or some other form can be invented. After the parade in Kyiv, who will forbid us to do anything useful on the territory of Eurasian territory? Nobody,” concluded Zakhar Prilepin. In response, the event participants again applauded the politician.

Prilepin, Zakhar

Deputy commander of the special-purpose regiment "Oplot" of the VNG of Russia for military-political work
from August 14, 2023
President Vladimir Putin.
Co-chairman of a political party
"A Just Russia - Patriots - For the Truth"

Bobur Mansurovich Bekmurodov - Uzbek public and political figure, deputy of the Legislative Chamber of the Oliy Majlis of the Republic of Uzbekistan (since 2019)

[Chips]

Well, if we add the numbers corresponding to the dates for the beginning of the wars, we get the number 68. WW2 started on September 1, 1939 (1+9+19+39 = 68), and Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022 (24+2+20+22 = 68). Which proves your point that both wars are the same.

But that's not what I said, is it. Not even remotely.
What an odd means of attempting to dispute someone's statement.

For clarity of reference, I was merely pointing out that appeasement and "peace for our time" were trotted out back in the lead up to World War 2. You know, the "let them do what they want, it's better for us" - coupled with the rationale Germany had for Austria, then Sudetenland Czechoslovakia... and beyond (Danzig). Maybe I was overgenerous in the assumption you'd have understood that.

But I've not once said they're the same. Meanwhile, your means of debate do, as pointed out, just look like arguing for sake of arguing. At which point, I won't engage further. Pointless.

[mr.WHO]

Everyone are talking about republicans blocking US funding and Horban blocking EU funding, yet no one is talking about those 300 billion $ of frozen russian assets anymore.

It would secure funding Ukraine for 3 years without penny from Western taxpayer.
Its an absurd we are going into 3rd year while this is still unadressed.

Until these funds are not transfered for Ukraine this is basically a financial Nord Stream 2.

[Chips]

Everyone are talking about republicans blocking US funding and Horban blocking EU funding, yet no one is talking about those 300 billion $ of frozen russian assets anymore.

It would secure funding Ukraine for 3 years without penny from Western taxpayer.
Its an absurd we are going into 3rd year while this is still unadressed.

Until these funds are not transfered for Ukraine this is basically a financial Nord Stream 2.

It was reported recently

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/us/p ... raine.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... zed-assets

[mr.WHO]

Everyone are talking about republicans blocking US funding and Horban blocking EU funding, yet no one is talking about those 300 billion $ of frozen russian assets anymore.

It would secure funding Ukraine for 3 years without penny from Western taxpayer.
Its an absurd we are going into 3rd year while this is still unadressed.

Until these funds are not transfered for Ukraine this is basically a financial Nord Stream 2.

It was reported recently

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/us/p ... raine.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... zed-assets

Nothing new here - still vague planning, weighting, analyzing - I'd like to see an action, money transfers rather than talking.

[Observe]

But I've not once said they're the same. Meanwhile, your means of debate do, as pointed out, just look like arguing for sake of arguing. At which point, I won't engage further. Pointless.

As I said Chips, I apologize. Please forgive. My only defense is that I've been pretty sick with the flu the last few days.

[burger1]

Russian ship Novocherkassk might have been sunk. Might have been loaded up with ammunition or other stuff.

~4 su-34 planes blown up recently. Might have reduced the number of airstrikes/bombings made by Russia be a notable amount.

Airforce base attacked a while ago.

More oil depots blown up, etc...

Ukraine might have or get f16 jets soon.

Japan might be freeing up some equipment for Ukraine.