Russia-Ukraine War

[Fenris321]

... Can't really say what's the US endgame here...

Dictatorship
– an American (me)

Trump is following a lot of the playbook used in the past to create a dictatorship. Hopefully the military says no when called in to deliver the final blow.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this is the first time in my 56 years that I am embarrassed to be an American. I lived through a lot of the cold war, I'm more worried now than I was then. But I feel like I have strayed pretty far from the the threads topic, so I'll shut up now.

[fiksal]

Video of this from CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/28/politics ... ice-digvid
full video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhquAWlke2o

Bookmarked for history.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this is the first time in my 56 years that I am embarrassed to be an American. I lived through a lot of the cold war, I'm more worried now than I was then. But I feel like I have strayed pretty far from the the threads topic, so I'll shut up now.

I feel you completely. I have Russian and American citizenships. I dont renounce Russian one because I am not gonna set my foot into Russian Consulate. And I am not particulary proud of American one. I am running out of nationalities to be proud of.

[burger1]

Trump is following the Russia playbook.

Trump and Vance are arrogant and don't realize they don't deserve respect. They are terrible leaders and haven't done much if anything positive for the world or even the US. The US hasn't been providing weapons to Ukraine to win the war like high yield bombs, bunker busters, etc... they just provide enough to keep them fighting. Trump's personal life is disgusting, he's a convicted criminal, he doesn't honour deals, he constantly lies and has no personal honour/dignity. He was the same way with the other world leaders. Reminds me of the pigs from the book Animal Farm. US can't defeat Russia because Russia will just launch it's MAD plan. Same as why Russia can't win in a war against the US, UK or France. US might currently be able to be defeated by Russia. Trumps currently disabling and taking control of and removing America's military/cyber protections. Once again these things are being hidden in the local News casts. Losing Ukraine would likely be a doorway to taking over the US eventually. Ukraine has human resources (people for an army), minerals, food, etc... It's actually valuable to the world. If you want peace then you keep Ukraine intact.

[Observe]

Very sad state of affairs. I'm not sure how Trump and Zelenskyy can come back from this. Perhaps after everyone cools their heels, and if there is a will for peace, there can be found a way. I'll hazard to say, that I don't think the US is entirely ready to throw Ukraine to the wolves. But time is of the essence. Trump made it pretty clear, that Ukraine has 'no cards' in their hand at the peace table.

Unless the situation changes drastically, Ukraine must accept the loss of territory and forego NATO aspirations. Considering that Putin is unwilling to permit foreign forces in Ukraine, the best hope would have been the mineral deal, which as of this debacle at the White House, appears now to be off.

[burger1]

US might not be able to force Putin to end the war so they are just messing around with stuff (faking it) to save face. So the war continues. Can force Russia out of Ukraine by increasing military aid. Can just agree to a deal then move in NATO troops anyways to keep the peace/reinforce Ukraine. Listening to Putin might be a mistake. He doesn't do what we want so maybe we should do our own thing. Remember US is strong and invincible according to Trump.

[notaterran]

Donald Trump is an imbecile, will Europe take charge of European security? Guarantees for Ukraine are a good start.

[fiksal]

Unless the situation changes drastically, Ukraine must accept the loss of territory and forego NATO aspirations. Considering that Putin is unwilling to permit foreign forces in Ukraine, the best hope would have been the mineral deal, which as of this debacle at the White House, appears now to be off.

And then what?

This is still an unconditional surrender. Am I missing something?

Trump in that conference confirmed doesn't matter if Putin will attack or not

[Observe]

This is still an unconditional surrender. Am I missing something?

Unconditional surrender would be Ukraine turning the whole country over to Russia and leaving their fate in the hands of Putin. We are talking about conditional surrender, which would halt further Russian advance, but leave Russia with the land that it has taken. Security assurances can be hashed out as the peace process advances.

[fiksal]

This is still an unconditional surrender. Am I missing something?

Unconditional surrender would be Ukraine turning the whole country over to Russia and leaving their fate in the hands of Putin. We are talking about conditional surrender, which would halt further Russian advance, but leave Russia with the land that it has taken. Security assurances can be hashed out as the peace process advances.

so what is that condition, who does what and who provides the security guarantee?

The only condition we all saw just now is Ukraine signing on on the mineral deal. Zelensky came to ask about one thing only - the security guarantee, and was refused, on TV, by Trump & Vance, that we all just saw. Right?

also

"Considering that Putin is unwilling to permit foreign forces in Ukraine"

so is the conditional surrender your personal plan or Trump's?

[Observe]

so what is that condition, who does what and who provides the security guarantee?

Hopefully we will be hearing from Europe about that.

The only condition we all saw just now is Ukraine signing on the mineral deal. Zelensky came to ask about one thing only - the security guarantee, and was refused, on TV, by Trump & Vance, that we all just saw. Right?

I think Trump considered the mineral deal as representing American resource interests representing security. The idea being, that Putin wouldn't dare attack American interests.

"Considering that Putin is unwilling to permit foreign forces in Ukraine"

so is the conditional surrender your personal plan or Trump's?

I am just trying to read the tea leaves like everyone else. I don't have a 'personal plan', other than stop the bloody carnage. Whatever that takes, along with measures to prevent further Putin madness.

[fiksal]

Trump considered the mineral deal as representing American resource interests representing security. The idea being, that Putin wouldn't dare attack American interests.

If that's Trump's thinking then I think it's very naive.

So let us circle back. And assume that the security for Ukraine, for Zelensky, is way more important than minerals, or betting on "American interests". This literally means if Ukrainians survive this or not. From this point, do you see that Zelensky's actions are the most rational course for him to take?

[Observe]

From this point, do you see that Zelensky's actions are the most rational course for him to take?

What actions are you talking about?

[fiksal]

From this point, do you see that Zelensky's actions are the most rational course for him to take?

What actions are you talking about?

Zelensky returning to US to ask for security guarantees with the mineral deal, which Ukraine was ready to sign. And receiving "no" in response.

To compared against the statement:

Zelenskyy may be able to return to the US, when he is serious about peace and honest about the reality of Ukraine's position (which deteriorates daily). Otherwise, it seems that Ukraine will no longer be a priority for the US. If Ukraine misses this opportunity for peace, they will see more of their country and their people lost.

"when he is serious about peace". - Is asking for security guarantee not serious, not the most important and rational thing here?

[EGO_Aut]

Zelensky should drop his pants, fall to his knees gratefully, and kiss Trump's feet as foreplay?

What has happened to politicians around the world? All I see everywhere are narcissistic idiots and actors trying to rip each other off. On the one hand, preaching Western values, on the other hand, looking away and closing your eyes and acting as if nothing had happened.

Shouldn't we as a people drive such subjects to hell?
Is democracy only active during election day?

It's time for democracy to intervene more actively, back to the roots!

[fiksal]

Zelensky should drop his pants, fall to his knees gratefully, and kiss Trump's feet as foreplay?

who knows, probably?

if we try to guess it seems their meeting with Russians went too well. Ukraine had to take the mineral deal then submit to Russia. We could imagine that Russia can easily swap the US minerals deal for a similar Russian minerals deal once it has puppet government in formerly named Ukraine.

democracy in US... Well those who wear a crown don't need one.

[burger1]

Russian State media reporter present at press conference in oval office. Likely snuck into that area but was allowed to be in the building due to trumps favourable news media policy. The Russian media has been posting positive media on trump. Could have also been part of a set up.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/28/media/ta ... index.html

[mr.WHO]

This is still an unconditional surrender. Am I missing something?

Unconditional surrender would be Ukraine turning the whole country over to Russia and leaving their fate in the hands of Putin. We are talking about conditional surrender, which would halt further Russian advance, but leave Russia with the land that it has taken. Security assurances can be hashed out as the peace process advances.

The problem with your conditional surrender is not that it would be surrender (aka war done), but there will be absolutely no restrains for Russia to reorganize and attack again - that's not surrender, that just a cease fire.

Aparently the whole spat with Trump/Vance was because before meeting, Zelensky pointed out that the Mineral deal has absolutely no official US security guarantees, just vague implying.

Same sh*t is when Trump ask EU/NATO to send peacekeepers to Ukraine - they ask "Will US provide at least air support, if peacekeepers get attacked by Russia? Trump - "No".

For supposed master of the Art of the Deal, Trump either don't have any cards or not willing to play them at all.



Worst case scenario, I do hope that cease fire would be better for Ukraine/EU than Russia (e.g. Ukraine managed to reform it's army and state infrastructure between 2014-2022, while Russia did very little), but we don't have luxury of relying just on hope. Especially when we'll have to face with Trump backstabbing together with his collaborators (Orban, AfD, Le Pen).

[EGO_Aut]

From the point of view of industrial capacity (with the allies behind UKR) it would be advantageous to at least reach a ceasefire. Unfortunately, Trump is not entirely wrong that the UKR is running out of soldiers. It is questionable whether those active would return to the front.
The best thing would be a ceasefire and new elections, for UKR. Selensky needs to show the world that the people is behind him.

Peacekeeping must be organized by UN, never by NATO

[mr.WHO]

The best thing would be a ceasefire and new elections, for UKR. Selensky needs to show the world that the people is behind him.

and how do you imagine election when 20% of the land is occupied by Russia?
Will people there will be able to vote?
What will prevent Russia to manipulate voting there?

[chew-ie]

Just to see how that scheme of Trump and Vance hit home - FOX news () did a long interview with Zelenskyy a few hours later: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GfqLcBwUT_E