Russia-Ukraine War

[fiksal]

Also, Europe, get off Russia's gas and oil

Yeah right OK, know any good alternative continental suppliers?

No, but it's a good goal, isn't it?

Crimea is/was 70% 'russian', in Ukraine it's a lowish minority,
can't see why people are making the comparison,
as if what's true for one in this situation would also be true for the other.

What was the comparison?

[Chips]

Some people have the view it as "well, it's got more of population type X, so why shouldn't they break away and be annexed by another country?"

Yes, I'll go there...

A view they share with Hitler



Guess it won't be too long before some of us are either pleasantly surprised (as it all de-escalates and returns to status quo) or horrified (if Putin turns out to have been lying all along about the reasons for troops being there, and no intention to invade).

[fiksal]

Some people have the view it as "well, it's got more of population type X, so why shouldn't they break away and be annexed by another country?"

Yes, I'll go there...

A view they share with Hitler

For sure it's Putin's view, plus his supporters. Among other things as I already mentioned, that Ukraine is not a real country, etc.

[exogenesis]

Snark

Perhaps you could keep your Hitler comparisons to yourself
(this thread isn't long enough yet for Godwin)

[Vertigo 7]

Why not? Russia and the Soviet Union have engaged in plenty of ethnic cleansings over the years. Even as recently as 2015 in Syria. If you don't like the comparison, you probably should take that up with Putin since he's the one ordering it.

[exogenesis]

I was referring to 'Some people have the view' which seemed like a direct reply to my post,
not a comparison with Putin.

However, I don't think Putin cares about historical 'failures', he's going to do 'his own thing' regardless.

[Cpt.Jericho]

Why not? Russia and the Soviet Union have engaged in plenty of ethnic cleansings over the years. Even as recently as 2015 in Syria. If you don't like the comparison, you probably should take that up with Putin since he's the one ordering it.

Wow, that's new. Which ethnic was cleansed in Syria by Russia? As far as I remember the conflict is about people hating Assad against people not hating him.

[Vertigo 7]

Why not? Russia and the Soviet Union have engaged in plenty of ethnic cleansings over the years. Even as recently as 2015 in Syria. If you don't like the comparison, you probably should take that up with Putin since he's the one ordering it.

Wow, that's new. Which ethnic was cleansed in Syria by Russia? As far as I remember the conflict is about people hating Assad against people not hating him.

I'm sorry. I'm not being paid to be your personal assistant. A) You can search the web yourself if you're that interested. B) more relevant and more importantly, I'm not going to provide you with a damn thing since all you're going to do is say something along the line of "Putin denied it happened, so it didn't happen."

[Alan Phipps]

Discuss the topic please and not other posters. Thanks.

[EGO_Aut]

Some people have the view it as "well, it's got more of population type X, so why shouldn't they break away and be annexed by another country?"

Yes, I'll go there...

A view they share with Hitler



Guess it won't be too long before some of us are either pleasantly surprised (as it all de-escalates and returns to status quo) or horrified (if Putin turns out to have been lying all along about the reasons for troops being there, and no intention to invade).

So USA/NATO is like Nazi Hitler.
Because they broke away Kosovo from Serbia, thats very logical.

And in your opinion discriminating minoritys is total ok that they do not have the right to get a rent. - Because this is what UKR has done after Maidan protests, before Putin got involved.

[Warenwolf]

Meanwhile Russians have just reported killing Ukrainian infiltration group.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... territory/


As to Ukrainian oppression of Russian minority - that is just Putin's propaganda* just as the event from above, in order to motivate Russian public for conflicts and wars.

On contrary it is ethnic ukranians, non-conformist russians and other ethnic groups who are facing prosecution in occupied territories of Ukraine:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/05/03/cri ... me-anymore

*blowing minor issues out of proportions and taking them out of their context.

[Chips]

So USA/NATO is like Nazi Hitler.
Because they broke away Kosovo from Serbia, thats very logical.

And in your opinion discriminating minoritys is total ok that they do not have the right to get a rent. - Because this is what UKR has done after Maidan protests, before Putin got involved.

You'd need to provide something about said discrimination. Just throwing claims out unless it's the literal current news topic (i.e. trivial to find) is moderately pointless if it's actually valid.

E.g.

In late 1998, Milosevic unleashed a brutal police and military campaign against the KLA, which included widespread atrocities against civilians. Milosevic’s failure to agree to the Rambouillet Accords triggered a NATO military campaign to halt the violence in Kosovo.

https://history.state.gov/countries/kosovo

I don't think anyone would say things were handled correct/proper/well in that instance; for example, were the Rambouillet accords serious or just a means of trying to force a particular outcome. I think most people would say mistakes were made or that it was poorly conceived and forced through. Sadly some politicians seem to want to be seen to do the right thing so prematurely jump onto something poorly conceived as the only solution -- or more likely, make an impact that ensures their "legacy".

The difference is we're looking at the past - the benefit of hindsight. Personally I was too young at the time to understand much of what was going on, so my opinion is formed on the benefit of hindsight. Having said that...

Exploiting the benefit of hindsight to present whataboutery as an excuse towards actions in the present is seriously bad form.

However, it all depends upon your point of view doesn't it. If you hold the opinion Russia should be allowed to save the day by ripping chunks out of another country because "well, they're his people..." (tenuous at best), then you're probably going to try and support that opinion. Whataboutery may seem convenient, though very wrong.

But I'm assuming you're in this thread simply because you believe Russia are ONLY doing exercises and have no comment whatsoever upon Ukraine, and were just sick of hearing Western media saying Russia are on a war footing to invade.

Or is there more to it? What relevance does history have, or are you expressing the opinion of what should be happening in the Ukraine. Actually, what do you think should happen? What's your thought on this and why?

As for Maidan, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan -- I thought Putin had no involvement in the fallout of all that? What, pray, did he do?

The real reason I'm here is:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60468264

Ukraine crisis: Five reasons why Putin might not invade

Oh look! It's not US mouthpiece saying it's happening... alternatives.

Having just seen Putin's latest output, this isn't about NATO is it. NATO is the thin excuse/justification... its about one man's nationalism to "correct the wrongs of the past"; he doesn't even view Ukraine as a legitimate country.

Yikes.

[EGO_Aut]

Here you can read how UKR oppresses his minoritys, and stopped 2014 the pensions. They showed them that they are undesirable. But for you and Reuters it does not matter, you can blame Putin for everything


https://www.unhcr.org/news/stories/2017 ... sions.html

[Warenwolf]

Here you can read how UKR oppresses his minoritys, and stopped 2014 the pensions. They showed them that they are undesirable. But for you and Reuters it does not matter, you can blame Putin for everything


https://www.unhcr.org/news/stories/2017 ... sions.html

You are reaching for straws - you expect Ukrainian government to transfer money into areas they do not control AND which are under control of hostile forces? Not exactly same type of oppression I linked to earlier in this thread...

----

In latest news, after yet again referring to Ukraine as an artificial land and ancient Russian land, Putin has ordered "peacekeeping troops" into Luhansk and Donetsk.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... 9e465d1675

[Chips]

Erm, minorities are defined as ethnic, racial or cultural groups. When it comes down to age, that's just discrimination. As it says though, no Government services whatsoever in the east for obvious reasons that they don't control the east. They should have resolved it quickly though, as pensions can be claimed (if qualified for) while living in an entirely different country to the one you've qualified for the pension from (i.e. England, retire to live in France/Spain/Italy wherever) -- so the continuation since 2014 seems entirely political; a barrier erected against those who need it most (and least likely to be involved in the issues too). Plain bad. Not much else to say on that front, it's bad.

Quite why that is supposed to legitimise Russian interference, threats, or more on an entire nation it has not one, but two, agreements/treaties to prevent it doing so though... is beyond me. Just highlights that Ukraine has a long way to go to get back to any semblance of "normality", and interference / destabilisation by external states is only going to make things worse isn't it. An entire text.

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countri ... ine_EN.pdf

I mean, it sounds like the east breakaway zones and along the front of the east/west area... well, just have to read it.

You didn't respond to any questions though.

[fiksal]

so,

Kremlin official word is that they are moving troops into Ukraine?

Of course they don't consider Donbas to be Ukraine.

A distinction without difference.


Who voted for the troops entering Ukraine? You get a cookie.
Or half a cookie, since it's not like Russian troops ever left Donbas...

[felter]

And so it begins.

[Olterin]

Look, this is all a misunderstanding, this is very clearly a UN-mandated peacekeeping mission, right? Surely Putin wouldn't stoop so low as to be on the level of NATO, acting without a UN mandate, right?

[fiksal]

Look, this is all a misunderstanding, this is very clearly a UN-mandated peacekeeping mission, right? Surely Putin wouldn't stoop so low as to be on the level of NATO, acting without a UN mandate, right?

or annex parts of another country, sponsor and take part in civil war, reward its military for taking down passenger plane, deny that captured soldiers are from the army. Clearly he wouldn't


so do you get a cookie or do you not, I can't tell ?

[fiksal]

as we discuss the events unfolding, I am curious to ask a question.


or there are several questions that I am generally curious about


those that defend Kremlin either by changing topic to another issue, another country or bring up some other atrocity - are you actually honest with yourself, much less us?

point being, you defend one atrocity but speak against another, difference only being "who" is the source. What do we make of it, are you actually against anything?


it is after all is what we are arguing about - who gets to do an atrocity and who shouldn't